Men abducting men?

[ebbieday]

Could someone please explain to me why two men would abduct another man to sexually assault him? I seriously do not get this and really need some clarity about it. Very disturbing!

[TheBigB]

Could someone please explain to me why two men would abduct another man to sexually assault him? I seriously do not get this and really need some clarity about it. Very disturbing!

If it were a woman that were abducted, would you get it? :hmmmm:

[james_t]

There was actually just one attacker. The full story is here:

http://www.fwdailynews.com/articles/2008/04/28/news/the_news_sun/doc4815d6f2dea08837770907.txt

As far as the motivation, no one knows that until the attacker is captured.

[ebbieday]

There was actually just one attacker. The full story is here:

http://www.fwdailynews.com/articles/2008/04/28/news/the_news_sun/doc4815d6f2dea08837770907.txt

As far as the motivation, no one knows that until the attacker is captured.


Ok I read it wrong the first time this morning...I read it as there were two in the car. Anyway, he could have said some things to the victim as to what it was all about, but I don't supposed that would come out just yet. Weird!

[ebbieday]

If it were a woman that were abducted, would you get it? :hmmmm:

How can anyone in their right mind "get it" when it comes to such a violent act? NO, I don't get it. Enlighten me, please.

[TheBigB]

How can anyone in their right mind "get it" when it comes to such a violent act? NO, I don't get it. Enlighten me, please.

Your original post could be taken a few ways. I was just trying to figure out what part of it you didn't get - the violence, or the man raping man thing.

[hairypumper]

What I don't get is how one man could do it. I don't know of any Amish who isn't strong as an ox, women included. The story doesn't say if the man was armed, I guess that would make a big difference.

[evilkumquat]

He had a knife.

Did ANYONE read the whole article...??? :)

[hairypumper]

He had a knife.

Did ANYONE read the whole article...??? :)

The Evening Star article says nothing about a knife.

[evilkumquat]

The Evening Star article says nothing about a knife.

Heh, well I'm glad then, cuz the article referenced by James mentions one.

[james_t]

The Evening Star article says nothing about a knife.

The Star's was edited down quite a bit since it was quite a bit northwest of their area. According to the News-Sun story, "The victim was tackled from his bike by a person armed with a knife and wrestled into the suspect’s vehicle."

[james_t]

Anyway, he could have said some things to the victim as to what it was all about, but I don't supposed that would come out just yet. Weird!

LaGrange Sheriff Terry Martin said on WANE-TV that the attacker told his victim that he had been looking for an Amish girl, but an Amish man would have to do.

WANE's story and video are here:
http://www.wane.com/global/story.asp?s=8238129

[ebbieday]

LaGrange Sheriff Terry Martin said on WANE-TV that the attacker told his victim that he had been looking for an Amish girl, but an Amish man would have to do.

WANE's story is here:
http://www.wane.com/global/story.asp?s=8238129


Hmmm...so this person has a beef with the Amish. Lovely. Too bad the victim didn't pound the creep! Let's hope to God they find this nut!

[james_t]

There's an update on this today:

http://www.fwdailynews.com/articles/2008/04/30/news/the_news_sun/doc48187c6fe733c980198017.txt

Here's one interesting point mentioned:

According to [LaGrange County Sheriff’s Detective Tad] Oakley, some criminals like to target Amish residents.
“People don’t think they’ll report (crimes) so some people think they’ll be easier victims,” Oakley said.

[ebbieday]

There's an update on this today:

http://www.fwdailynews.com/articles/2008/04/30/news/the_news_sun/doc48187c6fe733c980198017.txt

Here's one interesting point mentioned:

According to [LaGrange County Sheriff’s Detective Tad] Oakley, some criminals like to target Amish residents.
“People don’t think they’ll report (crimes) so some people think they’ll be easier victims,” Oakley said.

Yeah I read that earlier...pretty sick, eh? A lot of people think the Amish are scum, but I worked in Topeka a few years ago and (most) all of the Amish members we had come in were very kind and friendly. There were those chosen few that were nasty, but you get that from any background.

[LuciusBeebe]

How can anyone in their right mind "get it" when it comes to such a violent act? NO, I don't get it. Enlighten me, please.

Earth to Ebbie, a person can explain a motivation without endorsing it.

[ebbieday]

Earth to Ebbie, a person can explain a motivation without endorsing it.

What on God's green earth is your point there? Babble!

Apparently you've got no one else to argue with today. Guess I'm it...or NOT.

[james_t]

I don't think ebbie was implying earlier that explaining the motives of the attacker was endorsing them - just wondering what would cause someone to do this sort of thing.

Hopefully the perp will be caught soon and some more light will be shed on it. (Though even if we're all still in the dark as to his motivation, I hope the perp is caught soon.)

[ebbieday]

I don't think ebbie was implying earlier that explaining the motives of the attacker was endorsing them - just wondering what would cause someone to do this sort of thing.

Hopefully the perp will be caught soon and some more light will be shed on it. (Though even if we're all still in the dark as to his motivation, I hope the perp is caught soon.)

Can you say DUHHHH? Should have been that simple. Thanks, James.

[LuciusBeebe]

Can you say DUHHHH?



Could someone please explain to me why two men would abduct another man to sexually assault him?


Can you say DUHHHH?

[james_t]

OK, you two. We're not setting any high marks for Internet discourse by trading DUHHHHs.

[LuciusBeebe]

OK, you two. We're not setting any high marks for Internet discourse by trading DUHHHHs.

True. Nor are we by assuming that rape is restricted to heterosexuals.

[ebbieday]

True. Nor are we by assuming that rape is restricted to heterosexuals.

If that's what you got out of that then you really are an idiot. I could care less if I get my hand smacked too. You could have left the post alone, but that would be too easy. I'm done with ya!

[james_t]

If that's what you got out of that then you really are an idiot.

In Lucius' defense, I must be the same kind of idiot because I read your post the same way when it first went up, and I think TheBigB did as well, judging from his response. It read like you were more shocked that the assault was male on male than at the assault itself.


Could someone please explain to me why two men would abduct another man to sexually assault him?

I didn't think you'd intended it to come across that way, but I figured I'd let it play out rather than presume anything. And I think you've clarified that in subsequent posts.

Must be a guy thing. Guess we're all idiots. ;)

[tandjflo]

In Lucius' defense, I must be the same kind of idiot because I read your post the same way when it first went up, and I think TheBigB did as well, judging from his response. It read like you were more shocked that the assault was male on male than at the assault itself.



I didn't think you'd intended it to come across that way, but I figured I'd let it play out rather than presume anything. And I think you've clarified that in subsequent posts.

Must be a guy thing. Guess we're all idiots. ;)

It probably wasn't the questioning of Ebbie's position that got her riled, it was the demeaning, snarky "Earth to Ebbie"...But I could be wrong.

[LuciusBeebe]

It probably wasn't the questioning of Ebbie's position that got her riled, it was the demeaning, snarky "Earth to Ebbie"...But I could be wrong.

It was in direct response to:


How can anyone in their right mind "get it" when it comes to such a violent act? NO, I don't get it. Enlighten me, please.

Ebbie is inferring that BigB understands rape. I found that to be pretty darn insulting.

I know I'll have to explain further, so I'll just do it now:

When someone says

A. I don't get [blank]

B. Enlighten me about [blank]

they are making the assertion that the person they are talking to understands [blank]. That is why I made the comment that I did. A person can explain a motivation without endorsing it.

[james_t]

It probably wasn't the questioning of Ebbie's position that got her riled, it was the demeaning, snarky "Earth to Ebbie"...But I could be wrong.

Well, I was just responding to the "idiot" part of the post, which indeed was directed at the interpretation of her position ("If that's how you read it...").

If I'm keeping track of the attempts to see HOW CLOSE everyone can come to calling someone a name/taking a cheap shot without invoking moderation, I believe we have "Earth to Ebbie" (snarky, you are correct); "What on God's green earth is your point there? Babble! Apparently you've got no one else to argue with today. Guess I'm it...or NOT."; two DUHHHHHs, and one idiot. Did I miss anything?

[ebbieday]

It was in direct response to:

Ebbie is inferring that BigB understands rape. I found that to be pretty darn insulting.

Two words...You're wrong!

If BigB found it insulting, he is a big boy and could have asked me himself. You don't need to come to anyone's rescue.

Like I said...you could have just left it alone, but heck no.

[tandjflo]

Ebbie is inferring that BigB understands rape. I found that to be pretty darn insulting.



Is BigB your other user name ??.............

[tandjflo]

Well, I was just responding to the "idiot" part of the post, which indeed was directed at the interpretation of her position ("If that's how you read it...").

If I'm keeping track of the attempts to see HOW CLOSE everyone can come to calling someone a name/taking a cheap shot without invoking moderation, I believe we have "Earth to Ebbie" (snarky, you are correct); "What on God's green earth is your point there? Babble! Apparently you've got no one else to argue with today. Guess I'm it...or NOT."; two DUHHHHHs, and one idiot. Did I miss anything?
well James, it must be almost summer time if the kids are acting up in the sandbox again.

[LuciusBeebe]

I dunno, is Ebbie yours, Tand?

And I'm sorry if I misread your intentions, Ebbie. Let me know what you meant by your post, I've certainly misread people in the past.



well James, it must be almost summer time if the kids are acting up in the sandbox again.

What do you call what you're doing?




Like I said...you could have just left it alone, but heck no.

This is a discussion forum, Ebbie.

[tandjflo]

Ahhh, vintage LB. Stir it up and spin it in the other direction.

[LuciusBeebe]

"Stir it up"?

Take a look at your last 3 posts, sir.

[james_t]

Ahhh, vintage LB. Stir it up and spin it in the other direction.

Another one to add to the count, along with traded implications that people are setting up multiple accounts.

Come on, you guys. We all have better things to do with our afternoon than try to figure out the best way to call each other names without calling each other names.

I think the original point, now in danger of being lost, is that this is a horrific crime that no one, at this point, has any sort of explanation for. As I said earlier, hopefully the perp will be caught soon, and maybe then some kind of explanation will come out.

[TheBigB]

If BigB found it insulting, he is a big boy and could have asked me himself. You don't need to come to anyone's rescue.


For the record, I didn't think that Ebbie inferred that I understood rape.

The choice that Ebbie made for this thread title was "men abducting men?". The implication sure seems to be that Ebbie was focusing on the homosexual aspect of it, and not only the violent aspect of it. When I asked for clarification, Ebbie did the classic bait-and-switch.

So Ebbie, could you humor me and please explain why you focused on the "male on male" angle of it in your original post? Or would you rather not, having decided that really wasn't the angle you were going for?

[ebbieday]

For the record, I didn't think that Ebbie inferred that I understood rape.

The choice that Ebbie made for this thread title was "men abducting men?". The implication sure seems to be that Ebbie was focusing on the homosexual aspect of it, and not only the violent aspect of it. When I asked for clarification, Ebbie did the classic bait-and-switch.

So Ebbie, could you humor me and please explain why you focused on the "male on male" angle of it in your original post? Or would you rather not, having decided that really wasn't the angle you were going for?

Oh brother *HUGE sigh*. At this point I regret even asking such a simple question. I never asked if any of you men would understand the homosexual aspect, ever! All I wanted to know is from a man's perspective, what might have been the desired result of doing such a thing. I suspect humiliation, but again, I could be wrong.

[james_t]

All I wanted to know is from a man's perspective, what might have been the desired result of doing such a thing. I suspect humiliation, but again, I could be wrong.

I'm no psychologist, but from what I've heard this sort of crime is generally about a sense of power or control. I think that holds true no matter what the gender of the perp and/or victim.

[ebbieday]

I'm no psychologist, but from what I've heard this sort of crime is generally about a sense of power or control. I think that holds true no matter what the gender of the perp and/or victim.

Oh power and control definitely factor into it. I don't know...I've seen this kind of thing on TV, but I'm from a small town so have never heard about it happening so close to home. Most go unreported, unfortunately.

Edit to say: I just watched the Jeffery Dahmer (sp?) story last weekend so I guess it shouldn't have been as shocking as it seemed.

[TheBigB]

I'm no psychologist, but from what I've heard this sort of crime is generally about a sense of power or control. I think that holds true no matter what the gender of the perp and/or victim.

That was one of the points I was trying to make, in my best LB fashion - it wouldn't have mattered what gender the victim was. At least I didn't use a Faffian approach.

And Ebbie, though you may not be able to conceive of it, there are more than a few women that perpetrate these crimes, too (though it usually is teenager on teenager). So making it a man thing is a bit unfair, too.

[ebbieday]

That was one of the points I was trying to make, in my best LB fashion - it wouldn't have mattered what gender the victim was. At least I didn't use a Faffian approach.

And Ebbie, though you may not be able to conceive of it, there are more than a few women that perpetrate these crimes, too (though it usually is teenager on teenager). So making it a man thing is a bit unfair, too.

Yes, I watch AMW and several crime shows. Women can be more evil than men, if you want the truth (i.e. Monster). You all are still missing my point so I'm done with trying to explain it.

[LuciusBeebe]

All I wanted to know is from a man's perspective, what might have been the desired result of doing such a thing.

I think he wanted to have sex with an amish guy.





At least I didn't use a Faffian approach.

That took far too long for me to get.

[james_t]

I think he wanted to have sex with an amish guy.

According to the LaGrange sheriff, the perp said he was looking for a girl but a guy would have to do.

If indeed (and this is pure speculation on my part) he was picking the Amish because he thought they were an easier target - either because, as today's story mentioned, he believed they wouldn't report the crime, or, as one of our online commenters pointed out, because an Amish person wouldn't be armed - it would mean he was just looking for whatever he could get the easiest, not that he necessarily had anything against the Amish.

But of course, he may have something against the Amish, too.

[LuciusBeebe]

I've not heard of an Amish fetish, but given the ones out there already, it wouldn't surprise me.

My previous post might seem glib, but it was not intended to be. So if it irked you, I'm sorry, Ebbie. But the question is one that I've thought about for awhile. Mostly while trudging through yet another psychology course.

When Freud wasn't advocating cocaine as the cure for everything, before demonizing it as the evil that it is... he was teaching the world that everything is more complex than it really is. Things like rapists aren't really after sex, they are after power. Or guys knock off liquor stores because daddy didn't hug them. The problem with that is I just don't believe it. A guy puts 8 years and a couple hundred thousand into a Masters of Psychology and suddenly everything is complicated.

Well sometimes a dude commits rape because he wants sex, and sometimes a guy robs because he wants money. The only reason they actually do it is because they think they can get away with it. Yes, there are cases of people who have suffered abuse and are completely rewired, but the majority of these crimes are not committed by those people. They are committed by idiots who think they'll never be caught.

That's why my response to "why did this guy rape an amish man" was "because he wanted to have sex with an amish man".

[james_t]

Yes, there are cases of people who have suffered abuse and are completely rewired, but the majority of these crimes are not committed by those people.

I'd always thought they were, but that could be just my own perceptions. I don't have the time at the moment to try and Google anything - do you have some links that say most sex crimes aren't committed by folks who were abused?

[LuciusBeebe]

I'd always thought they were, but that could be just my own perceptions. I don't have the time at the moment to try and Google anything - do you have some links that say most sex crimes aren't committed by folks who were abused?

The abuse thing wasn't the key, the "completely rewired" part is the crux of my point. Guys like Ed Gein. People like that, psychologists see a huge mother complex and try to paint everyone with the same brush. "Ed Gein had a mother complex, and that's why he did what he did. So clearly everybody who does it must have a mother complex". Things like that, you know?

[james_t]

Guys like Ed Gein. People like that, psychologists see a huge mother complex and try to paint everyone with the same brush. "Ed Gein had a mother complex, and that's why he did what he did. So clearly everybody who does it must have a mother complex". Things like that, you know?

I can buy that beyond the abuse, but I think the abuse may be one of the biggest factors. As I recall, there's a lot of evidence that these things continue, so that the abused kid has a good chance of becoming a rapist, abuser, or whatever unless there's some kind of intervention.

Yeah, I think Freud is pretty much out of favor these days - at least he was when I took college psych. If his theories were a projection of his own psyche, it makes me wonder more than a little bit about him, anyway.

[LuciusBeebe]

I can buy that beyond the abuse, but I think the abuse may be one of the biggest factors.

Sure, no problem there. Part of the problem in determining this is a tendency for people to play the blame game. "I did this because I was abused", that sort of thing, you know? That's my beef with psychology, it is all anecdotal. A guy says this, and the doctor has to have a reason for it. Well sometimes its just not complicated, and the doctor is giving the patient an out for what they have done. And if anyone thinks that I'm diminishing the cases out there of people who actually have been damaged psychologically by abuse, that is not my intention, and I'm sorry if I offended. I'm just speaking about the people out there who commit crimes because they want something they can't have, and the doctors who diminish their responsibility by painting them as a victim.

[james_t]

Going back to something said earlier - I don't think explaining something is the same as excusing it. You can recognize that those who are abused have a tendency to become abusers themselves, but ultimately they are the ones who make that choice.

[LuciusBeebe]

I don't think explaining something is the same as excusing it.

Even if the net effect is that our legal system gives people reduced sentences on the say-so of a doctor?

Isn't that excusing it to a degree?

[james_t]

Even if the net effect is that our legal system gives people reduced sentences on the say-so of a doctor?

Isn't that excusing it to a degree?

To a degree, yes. I guess what I meant was it doesn't excuse it entirely.

Hypothetically, if I were a judge hearing a rape case and the testimony is that the perp was abused, I would probably give him a lighter sentence - all other things being equal - than a perp who did not experience abuse, and perhaps recommend some kind of specialized counseling so that he could hopefully break the cycle at some point. But I would not find him "not guilty" and let him off with just the counseling.

[evilkumquat]

Yeah, I think Freud is pretty much out of favor these days - at least he was when I took college psych. If his theories were a projection of his own psyche, it makes me wonder more than a little bit about him, anyway.

Wasn't he a raving coke-head?

[james_t]

Wasn't he a raving coke-head?

I don't recall much about his personal life - just conjecture based on his theories.

He helped Sherlock Holmes kick the coke habit in "The Seven Per Cent Solution", but that was obviously fiction (although probably the best of the non-Conan Doyle Holmes stories).

[evilkumquat]

I don't recall much about his personal life - just conjecture based on his theories.

He helped Sherlock Holmes kick the coke habit in "The Seven Per Cent Solution", but that was obviously fiction (although probably the best of the non-Conan Doyle Holmes stories).

Would you believe I have read every Conan Doyle Holmes' story many times, but have never once picked up any of the pastiches?

I would probabably start with that one, though, since it was written by the guy who directed Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

[james_t]

Would you believe I have read every Conan Doyle Holmes' story many times, but have never once picked up any of the pastiches?

I would probabably start with that one, though, since it was written by the guy who directed Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.

I have a number of them, some that I care for more than others. Somewhere in my library is a volume of Holmes short stories written by a variety of modern authors, including Stephen King.

[LuciusBeebe]

Wasn't he a raving coke-head?

For a time, yes. (http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=cjp.011.0161a)

After some time, though, he reversed his position.

[james_t]

Dusting off the thread...

There has been an arrest in this case, but no revelation as to a possible motive.

http://www.fwdailynews.com/articles/2008/11/06/news/the_news_sun/hid99755sect_c1853905feab8ba9405.txt

[ebbieday]

Yes, I read that a while ago. GREAT that they finally caught the creep. And they are attempting to get a motive, just like I was trying to do some months ago. I am always interested in the "why" of certain crimes. Can't wait for the answer.

[Rockstarr]

From this link, it looks like the answer of "why" is that he "had been looking for an Amish girl, but the man would have to do."

http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081108/News01/811080316/1052/News01