Buying a 15 year old

[TheBigB]

Lets ignore issues of market value and any arguments on motivation for selling. How does age change the fact that one person is trying to sell another person who is under their care? Does the fact that the child is 15 make it better or worse than somebody being sold when they are 8 months old.

Yes, I know that the only thing being sold here was imaginary. I understand that this is all hypothetical, but your statement above didn't make a lot of sense to me so I'm trying to figure it out by removing the other factors.

This was a specific response to a statement made by armyda and not a general response to the thread. Here was the flow of logic:

Big B: this is not a realistic situation

Armyda: you've never heard of a parent trying to sell their kid?

Big B: doesn't have anything to do with this story. Parents doing this sell babies, not 15-year old kids.


At this point, I'm out of this thread. It is clear I am unable to get across the point I was trying to make, so I give up.

[Graygleam]

My argument is.............No matter how much money this man had, or what his motive was, there is no possible way that he could have actually purchased a fifteen year old girl in Northern Indiana. This being said, the only way he could commit this crime was with the help of the police. Had there been no entrapment, there would have never been a crime.

I can make myself no clearer than this.

[Tim120]

My argument is.............No matter how much money this man had, or what his motive was, there is no possible way that he could have actually purchased a fifteen year old girl in Northern Indiana. This being said, the only way he could commit this crime was with the help of the police. Had there been no entrapment, there would have never been a crime.

I can make myself no clearer than this.

@#$!%^? So because this is northern In Indiana one cannot simply buy someone? Maybe we can assume that because this is northern Indiana I couldn't buy a stolen car? or maybe a large quantity of heroine? or have someone killed.... or purchase a hooker... Doesn't matter where you are I think

[cynicalfoe]

Yes we all know it could not happen, don't we? Lets try to think of what would have happened if it did. First we would find out that the police received information about this guy wanting to by a 15 year old to take out of state to marry. After the police had a good laugh knowing that it would never happen, did nothing. Then what couldn't happen did..............people would find out that the police did get information on this guy but did nothing because it couldn't happen here in Indiana, how stupid to think it could. The people now would be saying the idiot police knew this would happen and did nothing. Most of the people in this post would be the first to jump on the bandwagon to bad mouth the cops. Just a thought.

[HoosierHelen]

Yes we all know it could not happen, don't we? Lets try to think of what would have happened if it did. First we would find out that the police received information about this guy wanting to by a 15 year old to take out of state to marry. After the police had a good laugh knowing that it would never happen, did nothing. Then what couldn't happen did..............people would find out that the police did get information on this guy but did nothing because it couldn't happen here in Indiana, how stupid to think it could. The people now would be saying the idiot police knew this would happen and did nothing. Most of the people in this post would be the first to jump on the bandwagon to bad mouth the cops. Just a thought.

Exactly Cynical! It can happen anywhere and it does. It is naive to believe otherwise. Thank goodness this never involved a real child.

Along that line of thinking - I've been watching this breaking story about the Govenor of Illinois being arrested today due to conversations he had while his phone was tapped.

I'm thinking - okay - here's a guy who got busted for major felonies for talking about them. He hadn't yet appointed the new Senator. Yes, I know there were many other charges and I'm not sure how many of them he had acted upon?

Meanwhile, I also understand what Gray is talking about on entrapment, that is a dirty business. I guess that is why we leave it to the Judges to sort out.

[LuciusBeebe]

Lets ignore issues of market value and any arguments on motivation for selling.

What I think being ignored above all else, and the real crux of the issue, is the plausibility of such a "sale".

If some dude in Fremont, Indiana thinks he can buy a 15 year old girl, fine. He's an idiot. Its not something that you can really do, though. That's my problem with this. Its not like we have a big problem with 15 year old girls being sold around here. Its not like we have ANY problem with people being sold here. Why the pressing need for a sting?

There's probably people stupid enough around here to think they can buy a nuclear bomb in a suitcase, too. Shall we put together a sting for them?

I'm not saying that people aren't trafficked in this country. I'm not saying there aren't pervs in our area. I'm just saying that there was no danger of this crime being committed in our area until the cops arranged for it to happen.

Stings are usually staged to address a problem in an area. The problem in this story is that one idiot spoke to another who thought there was a real danger about to happen. Look... if this guy was actually able to buy a 15 year old girl, he would have. His resources for doing so apparently were... asking around. What a crafty fellow. Surely he would have stumbled onto a girl vendor using this method sooner or later, right?

[HoosierHelen]

What I think being ignored above all else, and the real crux of the issue, is the plausibility of such a "sale".

If some dude in Fremont, Indiana thinks he can buy a 15 year old girl, fine. He's an idiot. Its not something that you can really do, though. That's my problem with this. Its not like we have a big problem with 15 year old girls being sold around here. Its not like we have ANY problem with people being sold here. Why the pressing need for a sting?

There's probably people stupid enough around here to think they can buy a nuclear bomb in a suitcase, too. Shall we put together a sting for them?

I'm not saying that people aren't trafficked in this country. I'm not saying there aren't pervs in our area. I'm just saying that there was no danger of this crime being committed in our area until the cops arranged for it to happen.

Stings are usually staged to address a problem in an area. The problem in this story is that one idiot spoke to another who thought there was a real danger about to happen. Look... if this guy was actually able to buy a 15 year old girl, he would have. His resources for doing so apparently were... asking around. What a crafty fellow. Surely he would have stumbled onto a girl vendor using this method sooner or later, right?

LB
I sincerely disagree with your opinion that there is no possibility of this crime being committed in NE Indiana. How on earth LB can we be sure this crime would not have been committed in our area unless our cops arranged it? What do we suppose drew their attention to a problem? Do we believe the cops created this crime? Are we going to begin believing our cops are guilty until proven innocent?

Do we honestly imagine a police officer being so bored one evening, he just imagines going to the streets and acting by asking, "Who wants to purchase a 15 yr old?"
If that were true, I'd be all over that case, but I can't imagine that is what ocurred?

Oh well - perhaps I'm the eternal optimist and should be shaken from the roots of my soul, but, that is what I think.

Until a law enforcement person has been shown to be dishonest, I will assume that they are honest.

(Oh God - here comes the wrath of Evil! and the wit of LB! ) LOL!

Helen

[LuciusBeebe]

LB
I sincerely disagree with your opinion that there is no possibility of this crime being committed in NE Indiana.

Let me know if it ever is. (or has been)

How on earth LB can we be sure this crime would not have been committed in our area unless our cops arranged it?

Because it didn't happen until they arranged it.

What do you suppose drew their attention to a problem?

Somebody dropping a dime on an idiot.

Do we believe the cops created this crime?

Yep. This particular one.

Are we going to begin believing our cops are guilty until proven innocent?

What does that have to do with anything?

Do we honestly imagine a police officer being so bored one evening, he just imagines going to the streets and asking who wants to purchase a 15 yr old?

No. They were responding to a whistle blower.

Until a law enforcement person has been shown to be dishonest, I will assume that they are honest.

I don't know why you seem to believe that I'm saying the cops were dishonest. I'm not.


When I was in high school, a fellow decided to call the Secret Service because two knuckleads joked that they were going to kill the President.

The Secret Service showed up to AHS and chastised the whistle blower because they were required to fly up here and investigate what they knew was not a danger.

This is the same thing.

There was no danger of this guy buying a 15 year old girl. The police should have thanked the whistle blower and left it at that. Not concoct a sting operation.

If they want to begin a string of stings to catch idiots trying to break the law, they'll be very busy. Our police should address our actual problems. Not create problems where there are none.


We've got a nice little community. We don't need our police acting like its New York City until things start happening like in New York City. And no, it doesn't count if the cops make it happen.

I'm sure if they wanted to, they could catch a bunch of people in a prostitution sting. Should they? We don't have a problem with prostitution.
Likewise, we do not have a problem with people being sold.

[HoosierHelen]

Well, I've been told frequently, that I have tunnel vision by my friends & family. I suppose they are telling me the truth because I know they love me.

Maybe I'm doing the tunnel vision thing here - I really don't know? I'm getting the feeling that you, LB, and some of the other guys understand this situation better than I do.

If any of you tried to talk to me about ice fishing I would certainly draw a blank also (maybe this is similar)?

I'm writing this guy off as simply simple individual and letting it go. I'm thankful that his victim did not exist and that he has been charged.

[Graygleam]

OK If it would be possable to buy a person in Northen Indiana, exactly how would that be accomplished?

[james_t]

OK If it would be possable to buy a person in Northen Indiana, exactly how would that be accomplished?

I was Googling a bit on human trafficking, and it did mention cases as close as Detroit and Indy. It's probably not too much of a stretch to imagine someone from this area making a contact there and arranging something if they were really determined to do so.

[armyda]

This was a specific response to a statement made by armyda and not a general response to the thread. Here was the flow of logic:

Big B: this is not a realistic situation

Armyda: you've never heard of a parent trying to sell their kid?

Big B: doesn't have anything to do with this story. Parents doing this sell babies, not 15-year old kids.


At this point, I'm out of this thread. It is clear I am unable to get across the point I was trying to make, so I give up.

I never said it was a likely situation, I just had issue with the idea that it was impossible. I don't have faith that the people in N.E. Indiana are all that morally superior to the rest of the country and world.

Now lets take that man who made the inquiries about buying: He apparently regards women, (girls at least) as property. What does he do if he doesn't find a seller? You don't give property rights or consideration like you do people. Do I know what he would have done, No. Neither do you.

So tell me, do you want him coming up to your daughter?

[armyda]

Offering to sell, and talking about buying, are two very different things. The first is illegal, the second is not.

Buying is not a crime.

My argument is.............No matter how much money this man had, or what his motive was, there is no possible way that he could have actually purchased a fifteen year old girl in Northern Indiana. This being said, the only way he could commit this crime was with the help of the police. Had there been no entrapment, there would have never been a crime.

I can make myself no clearer than this.

Buying is a crime.

Could you clear this up please?

[Graygleam]

Buying is a crime.

Could you clear this up please?

There never would have been a crime if entrapment had not been involved. Again I ask, if a person wanted to buy a person, WHO would he ask. Where would he go to buy a person. It couldn't happen

[james_t]

There never would have been a crime if entrapment had not been involved. Again I ask, if a person wanted to buy a person, WHO would he ask. Where would he go to buy a person. It couldn't happen

According to this site:

http://www.humantrafficking.org/coun...tes_of_america

there are somewhere between 14,500 and 17,500 people trafficked in the US annually, so apparently it can happen.

[blue adept]

Yes we all know it could not happen, don't we? Lets try to think of what would have happened if it did. First we would find out that the police received information about this guy wanting to by a 15 year old to take out of state to marry. After the police had a good laugh knowing that it would never happen, did nothing. Then what couldn't happen did..............people would find out that the police did get information on this guy but did nothing because it couldn't happen here in Indiana, how stupid to think it could. The people now would be saying the idiot police knew this would happen and did nothing. Most of the people in this post would be the first to jump on the bandwagon to bad mouth the cops. Just a thought.

Cynical, that particular line that we would hold the police responsible for something out of their control, is $#%%@^*&. I know you think I am the first to bash the cops, but contrary to popular belief, I don't hold them responsible for criminal activity. The defensive use of that train of thought, is reprehensible. If we, as a country, don't stop allowing the erosion of our rights, we will deserve the police state we end up with. I am also tired of hearing, if you have nothing to hide. That is not the point!!!!

[Copycatted]

If we, as a country, don't stop allowing the erosion of our rights, we will deserve the police state we end up with. I am also tired of hearing, if you have nothing to hide. That is not the point!!!!

In my own words blue adept I was glad to learn by the News section of the new wlki site how swift State legislation makes it so that more P.D. feet are put on the ground/work that can do home drop in/unnanounced checks 24/7 on Juevy(sp) offenders though electronic monitoring is yet available for need be Offenders. Now if the work market would just broaden itself. And I most certainly do not mean just work in the P.D. market to be broadened but by broadened meaning I think going green ABOVE P.D. work MUST be part of the fix if there is to be any fix at all.

Or in other words if it hadn't of been for breaking status quo of using the electronic system to monitor Offenders actions so much I can just imagine with the less work that the P.D. had how boring the job could be UNTIL an monitor is tripped and all of a sudden with sirens blazing and red lights flashing the whole Police squad is sent to an site giving the appearance to locals that there is an major disaster taking place...well it COULD be a major disaster but going to point creating work instead of sitting there waiting for a blinking light to show up on the monitor board wouldn't it be better if so much of the system in "the sitting there mode" could be offering valuable work to those who want to work

[matt_s]

I grew up in a city where crime was rampant. If it was illegal it was taking place in Flint. I've seen what that can be like. I'm not going to scroll down that page to see who made the comment about not wanting the police to act like this is New York until we start having crimes like in New York.

I really enjoy living in small towns now. Part of the appeal is the general abundance of law abiding folk and general lack of major criminal activity. I'm not naive. I know that there is still crime in the midst of our small towns. But I don't think we want to wait until they start to become like New York to act.

A sting only succeeds if the perpetrator in question acts when given an opportunity to commit a crime. "Victims" of stings aren't going to get a lot of sympathy from me. All they had to do was say no thanks when given the opportunity.

[armyda]

There never would have been a crime if entrapment had not been involved. Again I ask, if a person wanted to buy a person, WHO would he ask. Where would he go to buy a person. It couldn't happen

Do you know that the he didn't ask the person who reported him to buy a girl?

Would you please answer my question.

[cynicalfoe]

Just found out from one of my friends that the cops have mandatory training on Human Trafficking. For it to be mandatory, means that it must be a problem.