Kill the gays?

[evilkumquat]

You are exactly right. It is against Gods will. This world is crumbling all around us all. But in the name of equal rights it is allowed, and it should be. People should have the right to live any way they want in this life. The next life however will be determined by how we live this one.

I don't get it.

If god is omnipotent and omniscient, isn't EVERYTHING technically "his will"?

If he didn't want people to be gay, why didn't he just make them straight?

Before you start bandying about terms like "free will" and "human decisions", remember that the animal kingdom contains multitudinous examples of homosexual behavior.

Unless you think that dwarf chimpanzees and lions are simply making "lifestyle choices" and are doomed to "animal hell"?

[jennyk]

I understand what you are saying. 1st of all she wasn't a 'straight' woman to begin with...she just wasn't sure who she was when she married her husband. It would make me gag to imagine an intimate relationship with a woman also. Guess what...that is because we are 'hetrosexual'.

And the thought of a man and a woman being intimate grosses out homosexuals. I occasionally joke about that very thing with a gay friend of mine.

Sometimes, gay people get married in a straight relationship because they believe that it will make them straight. My husband has a friend from college whose wife married him despite the fact she had some strong misgivings about her sexuality. After they had been married for a few years, they sat down and she told him that she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay married to him. I've heard of numerous stories like that, both with men and women who got married only to eventually come to terms with being gay.

[JoeHooker]

And the thought of a man and a woman being intimate grosses out homosexuals. I occasionally joke about that very thing with a gay friend of mine.

Sometimes, gay people get married in a straight relationship because they believe that it will make them straight. My husband has a friend from college whose wife married him despite the fact she had some strong misgivings about her sexuality. After they had been married for a few years, they sat down and she told him that she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay married to him. I've heard of numerous stories like that, both with men and women who got married only to eventually come to terms with being gay.

Many people honestly believe that homosexuality is a choice, others believe it's a matter of being born "that way".
Me? I'm thinking it is CAUSED by the odd sort of way most of us are forced to live!
Think about it, okay?
Hormones in our beef, pork, & chicken. Soy products practically forced on us daily, even though soy is filled up with estrogen-like chemicals. Ritilin & similar drugs routinely prescribed for boys who are just acting like boys. Some VERY strange chemicals (including anti-androgenic substances poured into city water suupplies) routinely added to our drinking water. And much, much more.
What in the h__l are we doing to our children??
Joe

[HoosierHelen]

Helen, have you ever read Romans chapter 1 ?

Yes, I certainly have read this Paslone. Romans was written by Paul is that not correct? Have you ever wondered about the 'thorn in Paul's flesh'?

Paul also was originally a Jew. The Jewish laws were no more tolerant of homosexual behavior than those expressed in the Koran. Re: Leviticus 18 and 20. Also IV Maccabees stated that if one worshiped God properly and with consuming intensity "all desire can be overcome."

I believe Paul is bringing his Jewish roots forward into the New Testament as he wrestles with his own fleshly demons. Paul was a zealot who tried with all his might to worship God properly. He bound his unacceptable (to him) desires so tightly within the law of the Jews that he was able at least partially to suppress the desires that he found natural within him but deeply troubling and intensely negative.

[JoeHooker]

Yes, I certainly have read this Paslone. Romans was written by Paul is that not correct? Have you ever wondered about the 'thorn in Paul's flesh'?

Honestly, I think that like many of today's ultra liberal Christians, you may be reading things into this "thorn in his flesh" that never were there at all.
Paul, or Saul of Tarsus as his original name was, seems to have had plenty of trouble with his vision! He wrote once something to the effect of "See how large this letter is written, as I had to write it with my own hand". In a face to face meeting with the Jewish high priest (who he had known for years) Paul failed to recognize him. The historical records of the Galatians (an early Celtic people) even mention Pauls bugged out eyes & his vision problems.
So I REALLY think you're adding up your facts in an odd sort of way, & coming up with a very wrong answer.
Sorry
Joe

[evilkumquat]

Honestly, I think that like many of today's ultra liberal Christians, you may be reading things into this "thorn in his flesh" that never were there at all.

Lucky for you, you may have a new version of the Bible coming soon.

[evilkumquat]

Many people honestly believe that homosexuality is a choice, others believe it's a matter of being born "that way".

Funny how those who are actually gay KNOW they were born that way, while those who hate homosexuals are determined to believe it's a "choice".

[tallrob]

Funny how those who are actually gay KNOW they were born that way, while those who hate homosexuals are determined to believe it's a "choice".

Were you born that way?

[Mrs.Slotz]

I believe that God did make us all straight. He also gave us the right to make a choice.
Make the wrong ones, it is between you and God.

[evilkumquat]

Were you born that way?

Yeah, I was born heterosexual. The idea of planting a moist, wet, sensual kiss on another man's hairy lips is very distasteful to me.

This squeamishness only strengthens my personal conviction that homosexuality is biological because it would take a strong physiological compulsion to get over such a strong aversion.

Seriously. If you're heterosexual, imagine for a moment what it would be like to "choose" to be gay. Imagine deciding: "Today, I will find another member of my sex and push my naughty bits against theirs!"

The utter absurdity of this idea stuns me. Those who insist on treating homosexuality as a lifestyle "choice" do so only because to accept that such behavior is beyond the control of those who practice it opens up many uncomfortable questions about one's religious viewpoints and the "infallibility" of god.

[evilkumquat]

I believe that God did make us all straight. He also gave us the right to make a choice.
Make the wrong ones, it is between you and God.

What about hermaphrodites, Mrs. Slotz?

They are born with both male AND female reproductive organs.

If the human body can be born with physical proof of gender ambiguity, why can't people be born with sexual preference ambiguity?

Plus, this still doesn't address the 1,500+ animal species that have shown homosexual behavior. Were all these animals born "straight" too, but made a "lifestyle" choice to be gay?

[jennyk]

My very, very favorite stupid thing I ever heard of someone saying was when my parents were discussing with some people at church about a kid at school who was gay. The people they were discussing it with were very concerned that this gay kid was going to, I don't know, influence their children to be gay or something. (Oh my gosh, their kids are going to catch the gay!) They said that they didn't understand how this high school boy could know he was gay because he had never dated a girl. One of my parents asked if the mom had to kiss a girl before she knew she wasn't attracted to women.

I knew that I liked boys when I was young, and so did one of my close gay guy friends. (He even dated a girl for a while, which he said didn't end well and only solidified to him that he definitely was gay.) It just doesn't make any sense for him to choose to be gay - he can't get married, at least not currently; he has to be very careful because it could cause difficulties in his job; he's lost friends over it; he can't give blood; he'd have a hard time adopting a child if he wants to (even though my single sister could adopt a child if she wants one) ... the list goes on and on. What's the benefit to living as a gay man if he could be straight? He's definitely not a drama queen who wants attention, and he's a rational, logical guy in every other area of his life. There are many more benefits to being straight, and it's way easier. Therefore, I can only conclude that he was born that way.

[JoeHooker]

What about hermaphrodites, Mrs. Slotz?

They are born with both male AND female reproductive organs.

If the human body can be born with physical proof of gender ambiguity, why can't people be born with sexual preference ambiguity?

Plus, this still doesn't address the 1,500+ animal species that have shown homosexual behavior. Were all these animals born "straight" too, but made a "lifestyle" choice to be gay?

For once I've got to agree with you somewhat!
I didn't know it for years, but 1 of my very best friends was born "both". No one outside of his/her family ever suspected anything at all, until he/she wound up hospitalized with both male & female reproductive cancers.
That didn't change our friendship at all.
Joe

[evilkumquat]

My very, very favorite stupid thing I ever heard of someone saying was when my parents were discussing with some people at church about a kid at school who was gay. The people they were discussing it with were very concerned that this gay kid was going to, I don't know, influence their children to be gay or something. (Oh my gosh, their kids are going to catch the gay!) They said that they didn't understand how this high school boy could know he was gay because he had never dated a girl. One of my parents asked if the mom had to kiss a girl before she knew she wasn't attracted to women.

I knew that I liked boys when I was young, and so did one of my close gay guy friends. (He even dated a girl for a while, which he said didn't end well and only solidified to him that he definitely was gay.) It just doesn't make any sense for him to choose to be gay - he can't get married, at least not currently; he has to be very careful because it could cause difficulties in his job; he's lost friends over it; he can't give blood; he'd have a hard time adopting a child if he wants to (even though my single sister could adopt a child if she wants one) ... the list goes on and on. What's the benefit to living as a gay man if he could be straight? He's definitely not a drama queen who wants attention, and he's a rational, logical guy in every other area of his life. There are many more benefits to being straight, and it's way easier. Therefore, I can only conclude that he was born that way.

Exactly, Jenny.

Even without physical, scientific proof of the biological reasons behind homosexuality, simple logic suffices.

Most people do not want to act in a manner that will harm themselves if it can be helped.

Who would choose to embrace a life of legal and social ostracism?

[Mrs.Slotz]

I believe God made Special Needs Children for a reason. They are not like the rest of us, but, they were born this way. This was GOD's Choice.

I am sorry, I am not buying that someone was born gay. This is NOT God's choice.

[JoeHooker]

I believe God made Special Needs Children for a reason. They are not like the rest of us, but, they were born this way. This was GOD's Choice.

I am sorry, I am not buying that someone was born gay. This is NOT God's choice.

I'm sorry Mrs. Slotz, I don't actually believe that anyone is NATURALLY born gay. B U T, with all of the hormones & such added in to our food supply, all of the scads of stuff added in to our drinking water, all of the genetically engineered crops we're eating & feeding to our livestock (without ANY long term testing!). I can all too easily see how so many people can now be born hormonally all messed up, & therefore "born gay".
NO, I don't believe that to be God's choice! Rather I think of it as one of the vile end results of humankind's abuse of His allowing us our freedom of choice.
Joe

[HoosierHelen]

Honestly, I think that like many of today's ultra liberal Christians, you may be reading things into this "thorn in his flesh" that never were there at all.
Paul, or Saul of Tarsus as his original name was, seems to have had plenty of trouble with his vision! He wrote once something to the effect of "See how large this letter is written, as I had to write it with my own hand". In a face to face meeting with the Jewish high priest (who he had known for years) Paul failed to recognize him. The historical records of the Galatians (an early Celtic people) even mention Pauls bugged out eyes & his vision problems.
So I REALLY think you're adding up your facts in an odd sort of way, & coming up with a very wrong answer.
Sorry
Joe

Joe, There are so many different understandings of what our same Bible says. I am merely expressing my personal belief regarding Paul. Nothing in my belief about Paul's thorn is disrespectful of Paul and his devotion to his God.

Other theories have been offered: epilepsy, a chronic eye disease, perhaps even an abusive and distorting childhood sexual experience. None, however, fit the details we know of Paul's life so totally as the suggestion that he was a gay man. Christians could not listen to this possibility so long as they were in the power of a definition of homosexuality as something evil.

That definition, however, has died under the influence of modern science and medicine. So the idea of Paul gay and a good Jew are not now incompatible.

Imagine rather the power of the realization that Christians have received their primary definition of grace from a gay man who accepted his world's judgment and condemnation until he was embraced by the Jesus experience and came to the realization that nothing any of us can say, do or be can place us outside the love of God. Paul, a deeply repressed gay man, may be the one who made that message clear?

I do not expect anyone else on here to be open to my beliefs. I do respect all of you for the sincerity and commitments you bring to your beliefs. I am simply sharing my thoughts on the topic.

[JoeHooker]

Joe, There are so many different understandings of what our same Bible says. I am merely expressing my personal belief regarding Paul. Nothing in my belief about Paul's thorn is disrespectful of Paul and his devotion to his God.

Other theories have been offered: epilepsy, a chronic eye disease, perhaps even an abusive and distorting childhood sexual experience. None, however, fit the details we know of Paul's life so totally as the suggestion that he was a gay man. Christians could not listen to this possibility so long as they were in the power of a definition of homosexuality as something evil.

That definition, however, has died under the influence of modern science and medicine. So the idea of Paul gay and a good Jew are not now incompatible.

Imagine rather the power of the realization that Christians have received their primary definition of grace from a gay man who accepted his world's judgment and condemnation until he was embraced by the Jesus experience and came to the realization that nothing any of us can say, do or be can place us outside the love of God. Paul, a deeply repressed gay man, may be the one who made that message clear?

I do not expect anyone else on here to be open to my beliefs. I do respect all of you for the sincerity and commitments you bring to your beliefs. I am simply sharing my thoughts on the topic.

I can't even start to tell you how sorry I feel for you.
It seems so viley unfair for "the father of lies" to have decieved you so completely.
Joe

[nathandiehl]

Other theories have been offered: epilepsy, a chronic eye disease, perhaps even an abusive and distorting childhood sexual experience. None, however, fit the details we know of Paul's life so totally as the suggestion that he was a gay man. Christians could not listen to this possibility so long as they were in the power of a definition of homosexuality as something evil.

That definition, however, has died under the influence of modern science and medicine. So the idea of Paul gay and a good Jew are not now incompatible.

Imagine rather the power of the realization that Christians have received their primary definition of grace from a gay man who accepted his world's judgment and condemnation until he was embraced by the Jesus experience and came to the realization that nothing any of us can say, do or be can place us outside the love of God. Paul, a deeply repressed gay man, may be the one who made that message clear?

Helen,
Paul was gay? That's honestly an argument I've never heard before! I won't try to argue my point with religion, but instead logic:

So here's 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

So unless I'm missing something, Paul says homosexuality is wrong. And because of this, I would have to think logic says your argument that your argument hinges on the assumption that Paul believed homosexuality was not evil.
But as I just proved, Paul wrote that homosexuality was equal with sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery, prostitution, etc., and therefore it is not beyond a logical step to assume that Paul thought homosexuality was evil.

[HoosierHelen]

I can't even start to tell you how sorry I feel for you.
It seems so viley unfair for "the father of lies" to have decieved you so completely.
Joe

Joe,

Who do you believe creates hermaphrodites? They have existed since the earliest days of human records. Do you believe 'the father of lies' has the ability to create humans who are born with both genders? Do you believe 'the father of lies' has the ability to manipulate the sexual genes in other new borns? Science has given us the proof of genetic differences between hetrosexuals and homosexuals.

I do not expect you to answer these questions on a public forum, but it is good if we can place our beliefs under strong questions and bright lights and see if we still come up with the same answers. That is all I am saying.

Many who have assigned the description 'evil' to homosexual people, I believe are correct, if they are indeed born hetrosexual and are crossing that line into homosexual behavior. I also believe those who are born homosexual may be sinning against their creator if they try to pretend to be straight. Hopefully, we are learning that the 'truth' will set us free. Science has revealed many answers to us. We still do not have them all. Enough said.