What Say You to This?

[BigDeel]

I think a United States history book would be more appropriate.

I am only 42. This paragraph pretty much sums up what my contact with union people has been. I know not all union members are lazy,but 95% of the ones I had contact with are. The unions are simply too aggressive now.

Most unions were strongly opposed to Reagan in the 1980 presidential election. On August 3, 1981, the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) union—which had supported Reagan—rejected the government's pay raise offer and sent its 16,000 members out on strike to shut down the nation's commercial airlines. They demanded a reduction in the workweek to 32 from 40 hours, doubling of wages, a $10,000 bonus and early retirement.

[No Adventure Is Too Small]

I dislike all unions. The "thuggery" is one of the main reasons why. Anyone who says they do not endorse violence is ignoring the truth.
Here are the claims unions make:
Economic Growth <-----WRONG
Productivity <-----WRONG
Competitiveness <-----WRONG
Product or service delivery and quality <----MAYBE
Training <----- YES TO THOSE SELECTED
Turnover <----- YES, YOU CAN'T FIRE THEM WITHOUT A YEAR LONG PROCEDURE EVEN IF THEY ARE LAZY
Solvency of the firm <--------WRONG
Workplace health and safety <----- YES,THE ONLY GOOD THEY HAVE EVER DONE
Economic development <-------WRONG,THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
These are my own life formed opinions,THEREFORE I DO NOT NEED TO PROVIDE LINKS TO PROVE MY POINT.

This is a prime example of the old adage opinions are like @ holes everyone has one!
Not being able willing and able to prove your points shows your bias on the subject matter.
If all that you know about unions is what you have read, then you are definately uninformed.
Obviously such lack of actual knowledge doesn't prevent you from spouting off about things
that you know little about. The only real honesty that I see in your post is your last sentence.

[BigDeel]

This is a prime example of the old adage opinions are like @ holes everyone has one!
Not being able willing and able to prove your points shows your bias on the subject matter.
If all that you know about unions is what you have read, then you are definately uninformed.
Obviously such lack of actual knowledge doesn't prevent you from spouting off about things
that you know little about. The only real honesty that I see in your post is your last sentence.

Hell yes I'm biased from my life experiences, which mean more than anything you could look up on the www.
No one has posted anything to show different. This is not the "oldendays" people. Unions are bad for the economy period!
Until they put themselves in check, my opinion will not change.

[evilkumquat]

The bible is also a history book, yet discredited on this forum.
I have read all I need to know about unions,but I am not too smart to learn new things. So Unions need to change their ways for me to like them. They have helped the workplace safety for sure,but then greed set in.

The Bible is a history book?

Then so is The Lord of the Rings.

[No Adventure Is Too Small]

Hell yes I'm biased from my life experiences, which mean more than anything you could look up on the www.
No one has posted anything to show different. This is not the "oldendays" people. Unions are bad for the economy period!
Until they put themselves in check, my opinion will not change.

I happen to have over 30 years of real life experience working in a Union environment
with 1000's of Union members. Entailing contract negotiations, strikes, plant closings and scab labor.
99% of the people that I have spent a lifetime with and around teach me that your assertions are
crap. Stick with reading your flimflam stories and live in the ice age mentality if you choose, but I
can safely assure you that the jobs of today wouldn't be anywhere near as lucrative as they are
had people not joined together and fought against the injustices of power bosses. There is no way
that I could ever change your biased assumptions on the matter, suffice it to say you are wrong,
the men and women in the unions made this Country what it is. Strong and United! Narrow minded
cave dwellers may never acknowledge that but the truth is in the History.

[BigDeel]

I happen to have over 30 years of real life experience working in a Union environment
with 1000's of Union members. Entailing contract negotiations, strikes, plant closings and scab labor.
99% of the people that I have spent a lifetime with and around teach me that your assertions are
crap. Stick with reading your flimflam stories and live in the ice age mentality if you choose, but I
can safely assure you that the jobs of today wouldn't be anywhere near as lucrative as they are
had people not joined together and fought against the injustices of power bosses. There is no way
that I could ever change your biased assumptions on the matter, suffice it to say you are wrong,
the men and women in the unions made this Country what it is. Strong and United! Narrow minded
cave dwellers may never acknowledge that but the truth is in the History.

Those lucrative jobs you speak of are going over seas. Many because of high labor or cheap foreign labor. We operate with a trade system that favors the cheap foreign labor. You nor I can lump all unions together as good or bad.
your quote:"....Country what it is. Strong and United!" I wish we were, but it seems we are vulnerable and divided.

[Thorman]

Can anyone say, with a clear conscience, that business owners will treat their employees in a decent and honest way because of the goodness of their hearts? We have gone around and around on this forum regarding unions. As I have previously posted: contracts with a union are agreements that both the workers and owners have negotiated together. The management/owners have agreed to the deal. What tends to happen is that then later they find out that they were not as smart as they originally thought they were when they negotiated the contract [see NFL owners] and try to rescind the deal that they accepted.

No one can be forced to join a union. If you don't like it, then don't join. Just sit back and mooch of the contract that the union members paid to negotiate and feel superior. That is, of course, parasitic. But then you knew that.

[krazetrain]

I happen to have over 30 years of real life experience working in a Union environment
with 1000's of Union members. Entailing contract negotiations, strikes, plant closings and scab labor.
99% of the people that I have spent a lifetime with and around teach me that your assertions are
crap. Stick with reading your flimflam stories and live in the ice age mentality if you choose, but I
can safely assure you that the jobs of today wouldn't be anywhere near as lucrative as they are
had people not joined together and fought against the injustices of power bosses. There is no way
that I could ever change your biased assumptions on the matter, suffice it to say you are wrong,
the men and women in the unions made this Country what it is. Strong and United! Narrow minded
cave dwellers may never acknowledge that but the truth is in the History.

HELL YES! THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! If you like your freedoms, thank a Veteran! if you like your wages, your vacation, insurance, OSHA, thank a UNION WORKER!

[No Adventure Is Too Small]

Those lucrative jobs you speak of are going over seas. Many because of high labor or cheap foreign labor. We operate with a trade system that favors the cheap foreign labor. You nor I can lump all unions together as good or bad.
your quote:"....Country what it is. Strong and United!" I wish we were, but it seems we are vulnerable and divided.

Companies are indeed going overseas that is a fact that we both acknowledge. To say that it is
strictly over labor costs is very short sighted, the number 1 reason for corporations doing business
overseas is GREED plain and simple. You could pay about 500 typical union workers with the yearly
earnings of 1 typical corporate C.E.O. It gets so irritating to hear people blame the workforce for
all the ills of a given company, I have watched for years heads of corporations run them into the ground
only to get offered a sweatheart of a golden parachute to walk away quietly and quickly. Since you
admit to reading I am certain that you can find a multitude of examples that support my statement.
Other reasons for corporations going overseas is due to our politicians in Washington giving them incentives
too good to pass up and favored tax status. Both major political parties are guilty of this, I have also noticed
that you can vote and send the most knowledgeable caring honest straight foward person that you even
personally know to represent you in the House and Senate only to find out later that they change so much
once there they are far from who you thought they were most of that to is called GREED.
You can disagree that the state of America is ununited but do something to **** us off as a Country
and watch how we Unite. Are we perfect and chummy all the time? Hell No! Even still we are the greatest
Country ever developed and we each have the right to our differences. I do agree with you that there are
some bad people in Unions there are bad people in every walk of life, they typically don't last though. You
can bet that ole Bernie Madoff didn't believe in Unions either and look at how many lives he ruined but even as
powerful as he got, he came tumbling down with a big crash, but along the way fooled the smartest along with
the dumbest and all in between. No International Union Leaders that I have known of have incited violence to get
what they want does that imply that some Union people were not violent no it doesn't only a liar would tell you that
all Union members were non violent. However violence the same as GREED will get you no where in the end. Only an even
balance and everyone trying to work together accomplishes workable solutions. I admit I don't know all of the answers
to resolve everything, but getting rid of Unions will not solve what appears to concern you.

[krazetrain]

Those lucrative jobs you speak of are going over seas. Many because of high labor or cheap foreign labor. We operate with a trade system that favors the cheap foreign labor. You nor I can lump all unions together as good or bad.
your quote:"....Country what it is. Strong and United!" I wish we were, but it seems we are vulnerable and divided.

Then the system, that favors "cheap foreign labor" needs to be changed back to favor the American working people instead of the corporate elite!

[evilkumquat]

Can anyone say, with a clear conscience, that business owners will treat their employees in a decent and honest way because of the goodness of their hearts? We have gone around and around on this forum regarding unions. As I have previously posted: contracts with a union are agreements that both the workers and owners have negotiated together. The management/owners have agreed to the deal. What tends to happen is that then later they find out that they were not as smart as they originally thought they were when they negotiated the contract [see NFL owners] and try to rescind the deal that they accepted.

No one can be forced to join a union. If you don't like it, then don't join. Just sit back and mooch of the contract that the union members paid to negotiate and feel superior. That is, of course, parasitic. But then you knew that.

I've said it before.

So many people in this country have economic Stockholm Syndrome.

They aren't rich. They're lucky they have jobs (if they do). They'll be screwed if anything happens to their health insurance (if they have it).

Yet they remain pro-business and anti-union.

[krazetrain]

I am only 42. This paragraph pretty much sums up what my contact with union people has been. I know not all union members are lazy,but 95% of the ones I had contact with are. The unions are simply too aggressive now.

Most unions were strongly opposed to Reagan in the 1980 presidential election. On August 3, 1981, the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) union—which had supported Reagan—rejected the government's pay raise offer and sent its 16,000 members out on strike to shut down the nation's commercial airlines. They demanded a reduction in the workweek to 32 from 40 hours, doubling of wages, a $10,000 bonus and early retirement.

You forgot to add the most important thing to that senario! A few years earlier, the Pilots Union went on strike. PATCO members, under threat of the government, crossed the Pilots picket line. This was the straw that broke the back of the pilots strike. When PATCO went on strike, the Pilots said, "screw them" and then crossed the controllers picket line! Ronny Reagan used the most effective strategy to win any confrontation. It is called DIVIDE & CONQUER! Very similar to what ALL of our elected people in DC are doing. History books are written by the winners of the battles! That does not make them true, factual or accurate. Those books are usually slanted in favor of the writer, to make them appear better and to self justify the misdeeds that were done. Go ahead and blame unions as you are doing! They make up less than 10 % of the current workforce. So if being non union is so special, why don't you blame the majority of the workforce for our loss of jobs. Then again, if unions were as powerful, as they have been in the past, the total melltdown of our country may not of occured. Or at least the theives on Wall Street, Madison Avenue , Capitol Hill, Grand Caymans, etc, would be prosecuted for stealing the future of our nation.

[NightFire]

HELL YES! THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! If you like your freedoms, thank a Veteran! if you like your wages, your vacation, insurance, OSHA, thank a UNION WORKER!

If you like your freedoms thank a union worker, veterans fought for other peoples freedoms....sorry

[HomeyG]

If you like your freedoms thank a union worker, veterans fought for other peoples freedoms....sorry

Without the veterans I wonder how much freedom a union worker would have?

[NightFire]

On August 3, 1981, the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) union—which had supported Reagan—rejected the government's pay raise offer and sent its 16,000 members out on strike to shut down the nation's commercial airlines. They demanded a reduction in the workweek to 32 from 40 hours, doubling of wages, a $10,000 bonus and early retirement.

The big demand was Public safety issues!

Just weeks before the presidential election, on Oct. 20, 1980, candidate Reagan wrote a reassuring letter to PATCO President Robert Poli, vowing to cooperate with the union.

Reagan wrote, “I have been briefed by members of my staff ... that too few people [are] working unreasonable hours with obsolete equipment. ... You can rest assured that if I am elected president, I will take whatever steps are necessary ... . I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the president and the air traffic controllers.”http://www.workers.org/2006/us/patco-0817/


The reason most of those in repuberty love Reagan....Reagan fired 11,359 striking air traffic controllers.

Whalen stated, “In the immediate aftermath of the PATCO strike, many observers reported that Reagan’s action marked a turning point in U.S. labor relations. History has shown this assessment was right on the mark. If it is true that the strike is labor’s ‘only true weapon’ as some unionists suggest, then practically the entire movement has been disarmed. This also indicates that the legal right of workers to organize and bargain collectively has little real meaning.”

Other reading you may find interesting...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profess...ization_(1968)
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/au...pat1-a03.shtml

[NightFire]

Without the veterans I wonder how much freedom a union worker would have?

The founding fathers were union members before they were founders or freedom fighters ...so u tell me

[nathandiehl]

The founding fathers were union members before they were founders or freedom fighters ...so u tell me

Please answer two questions:
1. Who told you this?
2. Can you prove it, please? Links, please.

[evilkumquat]

Please answer two questions:
1. Who told you this?
2. Can you prove it, please? Links, please.

This may have been a reference to their membership in the Freemasons.

[No Adventure Is Too Small]

Without the veterans I wonder how much freedom a union worker would have?

I have the benefit of being both! Being an Army Veteran and a Union member and **** Proud of both!

[evilkumquat]

I have the benefit of being both! Being an Army Veteran and a Union member and **** Proud of both!

The military protects our personal safety.

Unions protect our economic safety.