Local Police Departments Take Note

[armyda]

I'm not sure how this discussion twisted itself into some misguided belief that people are more likely to commit crimes if they are uneducated and that, therefore, educating them will someone elevate them to the suppoed level of law abiding GED holders. Records for "correctional" facilities in Indiana greatly speak agaisnt that assumption. Since you are so fond of your statistics. Here are a few more.

http://www.in.gov/idoc/2319.htm

Offender educational status as of July 1, 2009:
■ 34% Illiterate

■ 57% GED or high school diploma

■ 9% At least one college degree

66% of inmates in Indiana already have a GED or college degree. Their education didn't seem to serve them very well. How better will it serve the 34% that are not educated?

An excellent demonstration of how not understanding what a statistic means, that statistic can be misused. That was a snapshot in time of the status of population at that time. What might be interesting is to see what the snapshot was of those offenders education level at the time they were incarcerated, how many are repeat offenders. It is correct, if you don't look into the basis of what the statistic represents or how it was determined it can be misused, misinterpreted and meaningless. Some of us here are aware of the limitations of statistics. We understand those limitations. We also know that when used correctly, they can help provide greater understanding. They are not the answer, they are a tool. No one here said that educated people don't commit crimes. Our contention has been is that increasing education has shown to reduce the odds of repeat offenders at a lessor cost than continually imprisoning those people. It won't help every offender, but it will help some. Thus changing some people from a cost to society to a contributor to society. We also understand your previous statement. You don't care.

[Common-Tater]

An excellent demonstration of how not understanding what a statistic means, that statistic can be misused. That was a snapshot in time of the status of population at that time. What might be interesting is to see what the snapshot was of those offenders education level at the time they were incarcerated, how many are repeat offenders. It is correct, if you don't look into the basis of what the statistic represents or how it was determined it can be misused, misinterpreted and meaningless. Some of us here are aware of the limitations of statistics. We understand those limitations. We also know that when used correctly, they can help provide greater understanding. They are not the answer, they are a tool. No one here said that educated people don't commit crimes. Our contention has been is that increasing education has shown to reduce the odds of repeat offenders at a lessor cost than continually imprisoning those people. It won't help every offender, but it will help some. Thus changing some people from a cost to society to a contributor to society. We also understand your previous statement. You don't care.

Yet it seems in Indiana that educated people commit more crimes than those uneducated....maybe statistically, it would be better to remain uneducated, therefore avoiding the larger category of those who break laws...those with educations. Just to further twist the statistics as so many do and therefore further proving my point about how easily it can be done.

[blue adept]

Yet it seems in Indiana that educated people commit more crimes than those uneducated....maybe statistically, it would be better to remain uneducated, therefore avoiding the larger category of those who break laws...those with educations. Just to further twist the statistics as so many do and therefore further proving my point about how easily it can be done.

If you looked at your own statistics you would see a great breaking line at college level. I would say it is obvious that we need to see more college!

[LuciusBeebe]

Yet it seems in Indiana that educated people commit more crimes than those uneducated

That's not what those numbers say, Tater.

some misguided belief that people are more likely to commit crimes if they are uneducated

Its true. Look it up.

[Common-Tater]

That's not what those numbers say, Tater.

The numbers say that most inmates, here in Indiana, already have a High School education. But as usual, the bleeding heart liberals want to focus all their energy on the poor and destitute illiterates.

This conversation has certainly branched pretty far from police departments using positive reinforcement instead of their only contact with the public being to write tickets and tell people to turn their music down.

[LuciusBeebe]

The numbers say that most inmates, here in Indiana, already have a High School education.

Right, but that doesn't mean that educated people commit more crimes than uneducated people. That's not what those numbers say. The way to prove that point is to look at a statistical breakdown of how many people in the nation have an education, versus those that don't, and then asking how many of those people end up going to prison.

Lets take two groups of people.

1. People with a diploma
2. People without a diploma

I'm going to pull some numbers out of thin air for demonstration purposes only.

Lets say group 1 has 100 people in it, and group 2 has 20 people in it. If 5 people from group 1 end up going to prison, and 5 people from group 2 go to prison, then what you end up with is 5% of people with a diploma go to prison, and 25% of those without a diploma go. But when looking at the guys in the prison, it would be 50% of the prisoners with a diploma, and 50% of the prisoners without.

That's what I mean by saying your numbers aren't saying what you think they are.

But as usual, the bleeding heart liberals want to focus all their energy on the poor and destitute illiterates.

I really don't care about helping these guys, I just want the most efficient prison system possible.

[Common-Tater]

Lets take two groups of people.

1. People with a diploma
2. People without a diploma

I'm going to pull some numbers out of thin air for demonstration purposes only.

Lets say group 1 has 100 people in it, and group 2 has 20 people in it. If 5 people from group 1 end up going to prison, and 5 people from group 2 go to prison, then what you end up with is 5% of people with a diploma go to prison, and 25% of those without a diploma go. But when looking at the guys in the prison, it would be 50% of the prisoners with a diploma, and 50% of the prisoners without.

That's what I mean by saying your numbers aren't saying what you think they are.

Now who's twisting the numbers? Were does it say that the percentages are taken from 2 separate groups? Both groups represent the same 100% in those stats. 34% are considered illiterate (less than hs education). The rest have high school educations and above. It's pretty straight forward.

[LuciusBeebe]

Were does it say that the percentages are taken from 2 separate groups?

Offender educational status as of July 1, 2009

That's a separate group form the rest of us. Offenders are one group, non-offenders are another. They are two different data pools. You don't think a third of our population can't read, do you?

[Common-Tater]

Offender educational status as of July 1, 2009

That's a separate group form the rest of us. Offenders are one group, non-offenders are another. They are two different data pools. You don't think a third of our population can't read, do you?

We're not talking about non-offenders. Are you paying attention? Recidivism has nothing to do with people who've never been in prison to begin with. Those stats are only for those IN PRISON. I think I'm done with this topic. You can't keep on target so there's no sense discussing it anymore.

[LuciusBeebe]

We're not talking about non-offenders. Are you paying attention?

Yep. You said educated people commit more crimes than uneducated people. That would include non-offenders, since they are people too. But fine, if you ONLY want to look at people in prison, don't you find it strange that a third of prisoners can't read? That only two thirds have a GED?
What that should tell you is that uneducated people commit more crime, because those numbers are inflated from the percentage breakdown of the total population. The literacy rate in America is 99%. Yet your prison numbers say that 34% of inmates are illiterate. If education level didn't matter, there should be 1 prisoner out of 100 who can't read. Instead there are 34.

But go ahead, continue insulting me while you display your ignorance of statistical analysis.

[Common-Tater]

Yep. You said educated people commit more crimes than uneducated people. That would include non-offenders, since they are people too. But fine, if you ONLY want to look at people in prison, don't you find it strange that a third of prisoners can't read? That only two thirds have a GED?
What that should tell you is that uneducated people commit more crime, because those numbers are inflated from the percentage breakdown of the total population. The literacy rate in America is 99%. Yet your prison numbers say that 34% of inmates are illiterate. If education level didn't matter, there should be 1 prisoner out of 100 who can't read. Instead there are 34.

But go ahead, continue insulting me while you display your ignorance of statistical analysis.

What are you feelings about those in Wall Street and many of our bankers.... Or some of our local millionairs who hire homeless people so they don't have to have any record these people ever worked for them to evade taxes... If you want to talk about those in and out of prison there are many people who would say that the more money you have, the less likely you are to ever do any jail time. Look at Lindsey Lohan. How many times does she have to break parole before she's ever required to spend more than a week in jail? I just don't believe that poor people and those with less education commit more crime. They just can't afford the attornies to get them off and appointed attornies don't give a crap. That's why I pay mine, even though I can't really afford it.

[armyda]

I just don't believe that poor people and those with less education commit more crime. They just can't afford the attornies to get them off and appointed attornies don't give a crap. That's why I pay mine, even though I can't really afford it.

Are you saying that you'd be in jail if you weren't paying an attorney? My interest is piqued.

[Common-Tater]

Are you saying that you'd be in jail if you weren't paying an attorney? My interest is piqued.

My reference is divorce related. Not crime related. My ex-wife has one that is appointed. The difference in the way our attornies approach the case is crystal clear.

[LuciusBeebe]

What are you feelings about those in Wall Street and many of our bankers.... Or some of our local millionairs who hire homeless people so they don't have to have any record these people ever worked for them to evade taxes... If you want to talk about those in and out of prison there are many people who would say that the more money you have, the less likely you are to ever do any jail time.

You're talking about crimes that are basically only available to the rich. Its hard to get pinched for tax evasion when you don't have a job. Its hard to go to prison for defrauding investors of millions when you don't have a GED.

There are certain crimes that are the purvey of the poor, and some that are endemic to the rich. Rich guys don't knock over liquor stores. Poor guys don't do insider trading. There is also crimes of passion, or drug use, which effect both.

But what is pertinent to the discussion is there are many many more poor people than rich. Which is why the prisons are full of guys who commit crimes that rich guys don't commit. Poor people.

The best way to be poor is to be uneducated. The converse is true as well. Its hard to make a million dollars without a degree. That's why education levels are reflected in prison population. Its not really so much about the education as it is about the income.

I just don't believe that poor people and those with less education commit more crime.

It should be pretty obvious, since there are far more poor people than rich people.

[Common-Tater]

You're talking about crimes that are basically only available to the rich. Its hard to get pinched for tax evasion when you don't have a job. Its hard to go to prison for defrauding investors of millions when you don't have a GED.

The term you are loooking for is White Collar Crime. No dispute there.

There are certain crimes that are the purvey of the poor, and some that are endemic to the rich. Rich guys don't knock over liquor stores. Poor guys don't do insider trading. There is also crimes of passion, or drug use, which effect both.

I will disagree when it comes to what crimes the rich and the poor commit. Winona Ryder and Lindsay Lohan have both been guilty of shop lifting. Paris Hilton along with many R&B Artists have been arrested for drugs. And we can look at this big NFL drug scam that was just uncovered. The rich are just as easily capable of crimes poor people commit. Poor people are also guilty of tax evasion when they take money for jobs "under the table" without claiming it as income. There are some crimes that are simply job related. Insider trading can only be committed by those that engage in trading. Not every rich person has the oportuntiy for those crimes.

But what is pertinent to the discussion is there are many many more poor people than rich. Which is why the prisons are full of guys who commit crimes that rich guys don't commit. Poor people.

It depends on your definition of poor and rich. Being poor doesn't cause crime. It just gives them more of an excuse to commit it. It's called Victimology. That is where someone commits a crime and tries to justify it by making themselves look like a victim. For example... My family was starving, that's why I stole the bananas.

The best way to be poor is to be uneducated. The converse is true as well. Its hard to make a million dollars without a degree. That's why education levels are reflected in prison population. Its not really so much about the education as it is about the income.

This isn't true either. There are a lot of poor people who have HS and Colleg educations. Even with my Masters, my take home for 2011 was just over 25K.

It should be pretty obvious, since there are far more poor people than rich people.

Again, not an excuse for bad behavior.

[LuciusBeebe]

Being poor doesn't cause crime. It just gives them more of an excuse to commit it.

What you call an excuse and what people call a cause are in actuality the same thing. They are a motivating factor. That's what a cause is. Its what someone who is caught calls an excuse. I don't care about what people call it, I care that it exists. People with a good income don't rob banks.

This isn't true either. There are a lot of poor people who have HS and Colleg educations. Even with my Masters, my take home for 2011 was just over 25K.

I didn't say a good education guarantees one a good income, I said its the best way to get one.

As for excuses, I'm not making excuses. This isn't about making excuses, its about identifying problems and attempting to correct them.