Zimmerman Charged with Second-Degree Murders

[Todd Ianuzzi]

http://start.toshiba.com/news/read.p...org%3E&ps=1011

Below is the Florida Second Degree Murder Statute:

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

[Common-Tater]

So much has been leaked by law enforcement and Trayvon's school that the state needs to do an investigation and find out who's leaking all this stuff. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/g...214706403.html

[HoosierHelen]

So much has been leaked by law enforcement and Trayvon's school that the state needs to do an investigation and find out who's leaking all this stuff. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/g...214706403.html

Nothing of interest to me on what Zimmerman purchased with his 'spending money' at their jail store for inmates? Should he choose to eat Jolly Ranchers...I could care less. Did he shoot Trayvon fatally in the head...YES...I want to know. I appreciate that the state of Florida will be placing him on trial. That satisfies me.

May justice be done!

[Mr Douglas]

Unless I read a bogus story somewhere (which is entirely possible), even the 911 person told Zimmerman to back off and quit pursuing. He said okay, and then apparently chased and lit Martin up anyway....
Just sayin'- before this turns into the Underwear Bomber/ BinLaden/ Ft Hood story or something, where the story keeps changing from our esteemed 'media'..

[Common-Tater]

Did he shoot Trayvon fatally in the head...YES...May justice be done!

No, he shot him in the chest. And all we know is what the media has printed, which is an awful lot of junk from witnessess whose integrity was nevery verified and whose faces were almost all hidden. We have a lot of unoffical information leaking from law enforcement and Trayvon's school which also have yet to be verified as fact. At this point, we will know very little of the facts until this goes to trial (if it gets that far).

[Common-Tater]

Unless I read a bogus story somewhere (which is entirely possible), even the 911 person told Zimmerman to back off and quit pursuing. He said okay, and then apparently chased and lit Martin up anyway....

I got the impression it was a single round. Not a lighting up of the Christmas tree.

Just sayin'- before this turns into the Underwear Bomber/ BinLaden/ Ft Hood story or something, where the story keeps changing from our esteemed 'media'..

Too late for that.

[HoosierHelen]

No, he shot him in the chest. And all we know is what the media has printed, which is an awful lot of junk from witnessess whose integrity was nevery verified and whose faces were almost all hidden. We have a lot of unoffical information leaking from law enforcement and Trayvon's school which also have yet to be verified as fact. At this point, we will know very little of the facts until this goes to trial (if it gets that far).

So...if the 911 person instructed Zimmerman to discontinue pursuit of Trayvon....how can we defend his (Zimmerman's) continued pursuit?

[Common-Tater]

So...if the 911 person instructed Zimmerman to discontinue pursuit of Trayvon....how can we defend his (Zimmerman's) continued pursuit?

One could argue good intentions on the part of Zimmerman. I'm not doing so, because I dont' know what happened that night. But in another case 911 told the social worker that her call was not an emergency as Josh Powell killed his 2 sons and lit his house on fire, committing suicide. My point being that 911 operators are not police officers, do not have field expereince, and are not there on the scene. Is it the law that you must obey the instructions of a 911 operator? Last I knew, they were there to be a communication buffer between the caller and authorities, little else.

[Mr Douglas]

I got the impression it was a single round. Not a lighting up of the Christmas tree.

"Smile....wait for flash!".............Depends which side of the 'camera' you're on.

[Todd Ianuzzi]

One could argue good intentions on the part of Zimmerman. I'm not doing so, because I dont' know what happened that night. But in another case 911 told the social worker that her call was not an emergency as Josh Powell killed his 2 sons and lit his house on fire, committing suicide. My point being that 911 operators are not police officers, do not have field expereince, and are not there on the scene. Is it the law that you must obey the instructions of a 911 operator? Last I knew, they were there to be a communication buffer between the caller and authorities, little else.

Zimmerman would not have a legal duty to obey to a 911 operator. But his continued pursuit would be relevant evidence that he may have been the aggressor. There are several 911 conversations available to listen to, as well as the 911 conversation with Zimmerman.

Below is a straight forward analysis of the Florida law and the very minimal facts that are available at this point. The "Stand your Ground," or "no duty to retreat" concept is not relevant to this case.

http://volokh.com/2012/03/27/florida...-defense-laws/

[blue adept]

My take on this is that both were at fault. Zimmerman for continued pursuit, Trayvon for pummeling Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman should spend time in jail, because after following the kid, he probably deserved to be confronted as this kid did. The kid, took it too far by tromping the little guy down, and Zimmerman took it too far by shooting an unarmed man that just beat his ***. I truly believe Trayvon would be alive if he turned and talked to his pursuer.

[Common-Tater]

his continued pursuit would be relevant evidence that he may have been the aggressor. There are several 911 conversations available to listen to, as well as the 911 conversation with Zimmerman.

Below is a straight forward analysis of the Florida law and the very minimal facts that are available at this point. The "Stand your Ground," or "no duty to retreat" concept is not relevant to this case.http://volokh.com/2012/03/27/florida...-defense-laws/

However, in the summary at the bottom of your link, "If Zimmerman’s story is true (Martin attacked him, putting him in imminent peril of grave bodily injury, with no opportunity to retreat), then Zimmerman’s self-defense claim would be valid under the laws of Florida, New York, or any other Anglo-American jurisdiction."

My take on this is that both were at fault. Zimmerman for continued pursuit, Trayvon for pummeling Zimmerman. I think Zimmerman should spend time in jail, because after following the kid, he probably deserved to be confronted as this kid did. The kid, took it too far by tromping the little guy down, and Zimmerman took it too far by shooting an unharmed man that just beat his ***. I truly believe Trayvon would be alive if he turned and talked to his pursuer.

But we don't know that Trayvon "pummeled" Zimmerman. That is Zimmerman's claim. I guess I've been looking at the situation like this... If I'm in a neighborhood where relative live, but I don't spend most of my time there (he was visiting relatives, not living permanently with them) and as I'm walking down a sidewalk a night...I feel as though I'm being followed, even seen the person I think is doing it... my instict is not going to be to confront, it's going to be to get to my destination or to a more populated area quickly. If Trayvon did turn and confront Zimmerman, this speaks to the kid's character. A normal person is not going to turn and confront. I will also point out that Zimmerman doesn't claim he caught up with the kid. He claims that he lost sight of him and was returing to his car when Trayvon attacked him. To my knowledge, Zimmerman isn't claiming any kind of verbal confrontation before the attack. There's a lot to this case and we can't go by what the media is reporting. The media is about printing good stories, even if they have to play up certain aspects to make sales. Even KPC has been known to print inaccuracies.

[Todd Ianuzzi]

However, in the summary at the bottom of your link, "If Zimmerman’s story is true (Martin attacked him, putting him in imminent peril of grave bodily injury, with no opportunity to retreat), then Zimmerman’s self-defense claim would be valid under the laws of Florida, New York, or any other Anglo-American jurisdiction."

But we don't know that Trayvon "pummeled" Zimmerman. That is Zimmerman's claim. I guess I've been looking at the situation like this... If I'm in a neighborhood where relative live, but I don't spend most of my time there (he was visiting relatives, not living permanently with them) and as I'm walking down a sidewalk a night...I feel as though I'm being followed, even seen the person I think is doing it... my instict is not going to be to confront, it's going to be to get to my destination or to a more populated area quickly. If Trayvon did turn and confront Zimmerman, this speaks to the kid's character. A normal person is not going to turn and confront. I will also point out that Zimmerman doesn't claim he caught up with the kid. He claims that he lost sight of him and was returing to his car when Trayvon attacked him. To my knowledge, Zimmerman isn't claiming any kind of verbal confrontation before the attack. There's a lot to this case and we can't go by what the media is reporting. The media is about printing good stories, even if they have to play up certain aspects to make sales. Even KPC has been known to print inaccuracies.

I generally rely on the mainstream media to accurately report on matters. But the report on the information they are given. If conflicting evidence is trickedled out, that is what will be reported.

The record is a little thin in this case and physical evidence will likely be a deciding factor. Physical evidence from Zimmerman and Martin's body that will refute or support Zimmerman's story. Eyewitness accounts, although the tapes provide some conflicting stories and the area was apparently not well lit. What other physical evidence exists. Alan Dershowitz believe that Zimmernam will not be convicted. I tend to agree. Under FLA law, if the force is justified, it is an immunity, not just an excusable defense. Unless physicial evidence overwhelming impeaches Zimmerman's claims, or good eyewitness testimony can impeach it, the jury will find reasonable doubt even if they find Zimmerman's story weak.

Tater you are a trained in law enforcement techniques, tell us what physical and other evidence you would look at to work up the case and what such evidence would tend to prove or disprove.

[Common-Tater]

Tater you are a trained in law enforcement techniques, tell us what physical and other evidence you would look at to work up the case and what such evidence would tend to prove or disprove.

Keeping in mind that 90% of what I know about Law Enforcement has been learned in a class room, not field experience.

The testimony of the responders is going to be key to his defense. Some reports state that Zimmerman received first aid at the scene and perhaps that is why little physical evidence was visible in the footage from the police station. So their reports are going to be very important. However, if law enforcment's treatment of this case is any clue as to how they fill out reports... those could be lacking in information. Evidence in the police station footage might support some kind of injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. This could support blunt force trauma by either being struck or having his head hit a hard surface. Which would support his claim that he was attacked. His clothing won't reveal much evidence as I'm sure they've been washed by now or discarded. If an ambulance was called, and if they administered the first aid, I would hope they prepared a good report.

Coroner and autopsy report (if they did one) will also be important. Did Trayvon have any bruising on his hands, scraches, other marks? Skinned knees? Anything that might suggest some kind of physical altercation. How many times was he shot and where? One shot could suggest an accidental discharge. More than one would suggest intentional firing of the weapon. How far away were they from eachother when the gun discharged? Point blank suggests a physical altercation in progress at the time.... if Trayvon was several feet away or more, it might hurt a self-defense claim. Powder burns on Trayvon's clothing would also suggest point blank range. But I'm guessing from the way law enforcement handled this, Trayvon was burried and none of these things wasnever done.

Interview of the clerk at the gas station could be useful. What was Trayvon's demeanor at the store?

Honestly, if I was defending Zimmerman I would do everything in my power to have any and all evidence thrown out due to the botching of the case from law enforcement. The way they've handled information and evidence. They've shown no discretion at all with this information and I'd simply argue that since there is no evidence to suggest anything about either party and the chain of custody of evidence was non-existant, that the only information we have is Zimmerman's word. There are no witnesses who actully saw Zimmerman pull the trigger. There appears to be nothing available to disprove his story.

[michael medeski]

Tater you are a trained in law enforcement techniques, tell us what physical and other evidence you would look at to work up the case and what such evidence would tend to prove or disprove.

you forgot the

[Todd Ianuzzi]

you forgot the

What? If you have a point, make it.

[michael medeski]

What? If you have a point, make it.

you comparing tater (the security guard) to a crime scene investigator is a joke. hence the

rimshot

or.....

[Todd Ianuzzi]

Keeping in mind that 90% of what I know about Law Enforcement has been learned in a class room, not field experience.

The testimony of the responders is going to be key to his defense. Some reports state that Zimmerman received first aid at the scene and perhaps that is why little physical evidence was visible in the footage from the police station. So their reports are going to be very important. However, if law enforcment's treatment of this case is any clue as to how they fill out reports... those could be lacking in information. Evidence in the police station footage might support some kind of injury to the back of Zimmerman's head. This could support blunt force trauma by either being struck or having his head hit a hard surface. Which would support his claim that he was attacked. His clothing won't reveal much evidence as I'm sure they've been washed by now or discarded. If an ambulance was called, and if they administered the first aid, I would hope they prepared a good report.

Coroner and autopsy report (if they did one) will also be important. Did Trayvon have any bruising on his hands, scraches, other marks? Skinned knees? Anything that might suggest some kind of physical altercation. How many times was he shot and where? One shot could suggest an accidental discharge. More than one would suggest intentional firing of the weapon. How far away were they from eachother when the gun discharged? Point blank suggests a physical altercation in progress at the time.... if Trayvon was several feet away or more, it might hurt a self-defense claim. Powder burns on Trayvon's clothing would also suggest point blank range. But I'm guessing from the way law enforcement handled this, Trayvon was burried and none of these things wasnever done.

Interview of the clerk at the gas station could be useful. What was Trayvon's demeanor at the store?

Honestly, if I was defending Zimmerman I would do everything in my power to have any and all evidence thrown out due to the botching of the case from law enforcement. The way they've handled information and evidence. They've shown no discretion at all with this information and I'd simply argue that since there is no evidence to suggest anything about either party and the chain of custody of evidence was non-existant, that the only information we have is Zimmerman's word. There are no witnesses who actully saw Zimmerman pull the trigger. There appears to be nothing available to disprove his story.

The police investigator recommended filing murder charges after the incident but the local prosecutor refused to file charges, I recall. Wouldn't that lead to you believe that there was physical evidence to refute Zimmerman's story?

[NightFire]

my take on this story is a little different
Being they were both on the phone, one with a 911 operator (who told him to quit following) the other with his girlfriend, at the time of this incident
we also have the stand your ground law-which from my understanding, because Zimmerman had not identified himself to martin, Martin if he felt threatened (I would...being followed by an armed man who appears to be up to no good) would have a right to defend himself! To which Zimmerman then fires his pistol killing martin. The lack of identification, as shown by the 911 tapes, would make Zimmerman the aggressor- therefore guilty of first degree murder ( not 2nd) under Florida law. I see no real racial motive, just an over zealous watch patrol/vigilante. Maybe Tater could comment on this as to that if over-zealousness of this type would disqualify someone from a job as a security guard.

[HoosierHelen]

There are no witnesses who actully saw Zimmerman pull the trigger. There appears to be nothing available to disprove his story.

A lot of what you say Tater seems reasonable to me. The distance between Martin and Zimmerman when the gun was fired, signs of a physical scuffle on Martin's body, etc. These seem to be most relevant to the case.

What I do not like is the part of your quote I have included here. Given this kind of logic, a criminal would always have the greatest motive to leave no witnesses behind at any crime scene. It will be a most interesting case to follow. Seems as if Florida gets an unusually high number of high profile murders to me?

At this time, I don't feel I understand what transpired enough to form an opinion (other than Zimmerman should have discontinued his pursuit when the 911 operator instructed him).
As Todd mentioned earlier, that instruction was not of the same authority as if a Police Officer had made it. Personally, had it been me, I would have followed that 911 operator's' instruction.