Wisconsin

[edeevee]

Bueller? Anyone? I am surprised that no one wants to discuss the results of the recall election and its assumed impact on the future of labor relations, Republican policy making and possibly the VP nomination. What up, folks?

[HomeyG]

Bueller? Anyone? I am surprised that no one wants to discuss the results of the recall election and its assumed impact on the future of labor relations, Republican policy making and possibly the VP nomination. What up, folks?

Number one reason is we don't discuss!!!!

Remember way back when Blue said: I don't care if Tater ever posts again, I said it's going to get boring. Guess what, it got boring.

[HoosierHelen]

Bueller? Anyone? I am surprised that no one wants to discuss the results of the recall election and its assumed impact on the future of labor relations, Republican policy making and possibly the VP nomination. What up, folks?

The results of Wisconsin's recall election is most disappointing to me. I'm not acquainted with anyone from Wisconsin, so I can't inquire of them what were they (NOT) thinking? Apparently they are satisfied with attracting those willing to work for the lowest wages and benefits to educate their children. There are some teachers who do teach for the pure love of their jobs.....however...most teachers do need to support a family and save for retirement.

Apparently investing in education in Wisconsin is a 'no brainer'?

The United States has fallen to "average" in international education rankings released by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, according to the AFP.

America has received scores around 500 on a scale that goes up to 1,000: 487 in math, 500 in reading and 502 in science.

The AFP reports, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_793185.html

[No Adventure Is Too Small]

I think maybe the fencepost died, and there was just an oversight on not publishing the funeral notice

[HomeyG]

The results of Wisconsin's recall election is most disappointing to me. I'm not acquainted with anyone from Wisconsin, so I can't inquire of them what were they (NOT) thinking? Apparently they are satisfied with attracting those willing to work for the lowest wages and benefits to educate their children. There are some teachers who do teach for the pure love of their jobs.....however...most teachers do need to support a family and save for retirement.

Apparently investing in education in Wisconsin is a 'no brainer'?

The United States has fallen to "average" in international education rankings released by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, according to the AFP.

America has received scores around 500 on a scale that goes up to 1,000: 487 in math, 500 in reading and 502 in science.

The AFP reports, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_793185.html

Against my better judgement I am going to respond to your post.

I've provided a couple of links that you might find interesting.

First being http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...24344977741213

This link provides the wages and fringe benefits for Wisconsin's teachers. I did a quick random check of some teachers and their income matches and often exceeded the median income of Wisconsin workers.

Second link being http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...on.html?pg=all

This link provided the two main objections by the unions of the new law, first being the loss of bargaining rights of some benefits and, the biggie, the loss of mandatory deductions of union dues. As the result of the latter the AFSCME's membership roll dropped to 28,745 from a high of 62,818 and the American Federation of Teachers lost 6,000 members. This tells me that union management was not aligned with the rank and file and as a result of the recall election they did not have the support of the Wisconsin voter.

It should also be noted the Wisconsin went from a deficit of $3.6 billion to a surplus.

[edeevee]

Against my better judgement I am going to respond to your post.

I've provided a couple of links that you might find interesting.

First being http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...24344977741213

This link provides the wages and fringe benefits for Wisconsin's teachers. I did a quick random check of some teachers and their income matches and often exceeded the median income of Wisconsin workers.

Second link being http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...on.html?pg=all

This link provided the two main objections by the unions of the new law, first being the loss of bargaining rights of some benefits and, the biggie, the loss of mandatory deductions of union dues. As the result of the latter the AFSCME's membership roll dropped to 28,745 from a high of 62,818 and the American Federation of Teachers lost 6,000 members. This tells me that union management was not aligned with the rank and file and as a result of the recall election they did not have the support of the Wisconsin voter.

It should also be noted the Wisconsin went from a deficit of $3.6 billion to a surplus.

Hi Homey,

I couldn't get your first link to work but I disagree with you about it anyway Teachers SHOULD earn more than the median income of Wisconsin workers. These are positions that require a degree, many times they require an advanced one or the willingness to go back to school (at the teacher's expense) to get one. Teaching a classroom full of children is not the same as being a clerk at a retail store and compensation should reflect that.

About your second link, I DO agree with parts of that. Even though I think Walker is a twit and a puppet of his fat cat supporters, I still don't think it's right to recall an elected official just because you disagree with his policies. Caveat Emptor and all that.

I'm not so sure though that the drop in union membership says anything other than 'people are cheap'. It may be that when the now less well funded union fails to protect them from some of the things that employers are occasionally wont to do - like screw people out of qualifying for pensions, or firing them to replace them with someone who will work cheaper - or who votes the 'right' way - or asks those teachers to give up even MORE of their family time to work longer and more school days ... they might start regretting their decision. We'll see.

The surplus? Ha. Funny thing about that. When Walker was arguing that there wasn't enough money to fund union benefits he used one kind of accounting system. When he needed to pull a rabbit out of his hat during the recall election, he used a different one. Had he used the same system both times there either would have been a surplus BOTH TIMES or a deficit BOTH TIMES.

But that's not the part of this whole story that interests me. It's the part where Walker is the new darling of the conservative movement. Are they blind? He just won a contest where the 46% of the voters of his own state WANTED TO FIRE HIM. So, of course, the next logical thing is to consider him as a possible VP candidate. What part of shooting yourself in the foot do today's conservatives not understand?

[HomeyG]

Hi Homey,

I couldn't get your first link to work but I disagree with you about it anyway Teachers SHOULD earn more than the median income of Wisconsin workers. These are positions that require a degree, many times they require an advanced one or the willingness to go back to school (at the teacher's expense) to get one. Teaching a classroom full of children is not the same as being a clerk at a retail store and compensation should reflect that.

About your second link, I DO agree with parts of that. Even though I think Walker is a twit and a puppet of his fat cat supporters, I still don't think it's right to recall an elected official just because you disagree with his policies. Caveat Emptor and all that.

I'm not so sure though that the drop in union membership says anything other than 'people are cheap'. It may be that when the now less well funded union fails to protect them from some of the things that employers are occasionally wont to do - like screw people out of qualifying for pensions, or firing them to replace them with someone who will work cheaper - or who votes the 'right' way - or asks those teachers to give up even MORE of their family time to work longer and more school days ... they might start regretting their decision. We'll see.

The surplus? Ha. Funny thing about that. When Walker was arguing that there wasn't enough money to fund union benefits he used one kind of accounting system. When he needed to pull a rabbit out of his hat during the recall election, he used a different one. Had he used the same system both times there either would have been a surplus BOTH TIMES or a deficit BOTH TIMES.

But that's not the part of this whole story that interests me. It's the part where Walker is the new darling of the conservative movement. Are they blind? He just won a contest where the 46% of the voters of his own state WANTED TO FIRE HIM. So, of course, the next logical thing is to consider him as a possible VP candidate. What part of shooting yourself in the foot do today's conservatives not understand?

Your response was what I expected. Just couldn't help yourself from taking "pot shots" at the Republicans or at the citizens of Wisconsin for being cheap. Just because you might disagree doesn't make them wrong. Guess I will go back into hibernation from posting on the fence post.

[edeevee]

Your response was what I expected. Just couldn't help yourself from taking "pot shots" at the Republicans or at the citizens of Wisconsin for being cheap. Just because you might disagree doesn't make them wrong. Guess I will go back into hibernation from posting on the fence post.

Wow, Homey, where'd THAT come from? It's my opinion that the teachers and others who dropped out of the public unions did so to save money and that may not be the smartest thing for them in the long run. It is, however, their choice. Just like it is your choice to see my disagreement as a 'pot shot'. Because we don't see things through the same lens you think we should just stop talking? Good lord, our nation is worse off than I thought.

[HoosierHelen]

I sincerely believe that Edeevee is making an attempt at 'discussing' this topic of the Wisconsin recall vote. It is a note worthy topic where we can expect opposing opinions....obviously they had many of them in Wisconsin. The fact that Scott Walker had an eight-to-one fundraising advantage over his Democratic opponent didn't hurt his cause.

In my opinion, the results of this recall election will be seen by the Wisconsin citizens within the next 2-4 yrs as their public service workers begin to experience the cutbacks in their salaries and benefits. When 46% of the population voted against Scott Walker, this represents a sizeable number of unhappy citizens.

[HomeyG]

I sincerely believe that Edeevee is making an attempt at 'discussing' this topic of the Wisconsin recall vote. It is a note worthy topic where we can expect opposing opinions....obviously they had many of them in Wisconsin. The fact that Scott Walker had an eight-to-one fundraising advantage over his Democratic opponent didn't hurt his cause.

In my opinion, the results of this recall election will be seen by the Wisconsin citizens within the next 2-4 yrs as their public service workers begin to experience the cutbacks in their salaries and benefits. When 46% of the population voted against Scott Walker, this represents a sizeable number of unhappy citizens.

Sorry Helen can't see where it's called "discussing" with comments like calling an elected governor (twice I might say) a puppet and a twit, calling Wisconsiners cheap or calling Republicans blind. To me that is old fashion "name-calling" which ought to be left on the playground.

[Mr Douglas]

[edeevee]

Bwahahahahahahaha!

[armyda]

Hi Homey,
I couldn't get your first link to work but I disagree with you about it anyway Teachers SHOULD earn more than the median income of Wisconsin workers. These are positions that require a degree, many times they require an advanced one or the willingness to go back to school (at the teacher's expense) to get one. Teaching a classroom full of children is not the same as being a clerk at a retail store and compensation should reflect that.

About your second link, I DO agree with parts of that. Even though I think Walker is a twit and a puppet of his fat cat supporters, I still don't think it's right to recall an elected official just because you disagree with his policies. Caveat Emptor and all that.

I'm not so sure though that the drop in union membership says anything other than 'people are cheap'. It may be that when the now less well funded union fails to protect them from some of the things that employers are occasionally wont to do - like screw people out of qualifying for pensions, or firing them to replace them with someone who will work cheaper - or who votes the 'right' way - or asks those teachers to give up even MORE of their family time to work longer and more school days ... they might start regretting their decision. We'll see.

The surplus? Ha. Funny thing about that. When Walker was arguing that there wasn't enough money to fund union benefits he used one kind of accounting system. When he needed to pull a rabbit out of his hat during the recall election, he used a different one. Had he used the same system both times there either would have been a surplus BOTH TIMES or a deficit BOTH TIMES.

Homey, your post does seem to imply that it is wrong that teachers salaries are above the median income. I'd also ask why you feel this should be true.

edeevee, I'd be interested in looking and reviewing more data on the 2 accounting methods you referred to. Could you provide more information or links please?

Your response was what I expected. Just couldn't help yourself from taking "pot shots" at the Republicans or at the citizens of Wisconsin for being cheap. Just because you might disagree doesn't make them wrong. Guess I will go back into hibernation from posting on the fence post.

I see more shots at a person than a party.

Sorry Helen can't see where it's called "discussing" with comments like calling an elected governor (twice I might say) a puppet and a twit, calling Wisconsiners cheap or calling Republicans blind. To me that is old fashion "name-calling" which ought to be left on the playground.

As for being cheap, or frugal: If your college degree'd salary was below the median level, I'm sure you'd be looking at cutting costs as well. Especially to an organization that by law is limited in what it can provide for you

If you'll look at the comments on Walker, I believe that you'll find that this is a personal opinion. .

Hi Homey,
About your second link, I DO agree with parts of that. Even though I think Walker is a twit and a puppet of his fat cat supporters, I still don't think it's right to recall an elected official just because you disagree with his policies. Caveat Emptor and all that.
?

While not the politest opinion it in my view is a personal opinion.

[edeevee]

Walker: “We wiped out a $3.6 billion deficit without raising taxes.”

Army, Ask and ye shall receive: "Walker’s claim that “we wiped out a $3.6 billion deficit without raising taxes” is also dubious. The state Constitution requires a balanced budget. And it’s true that Walker offered a balanced budget using the cash accounting method. However, using Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) accrual accounting methods, there is a $3 billion deficit in each of the next two years. We won’t bore you with the differences in accounting methods. It’s perfectly legitimate for Walker to cite the cash accounting figure in his ad, but that may confuse some folks who may remember that Walker cited figures using an accrual accounting method when he argued for cuts in state health programs, because that made future deficits look worse." From Factcheck.org


For more on the difference between the systems, try here: Cash v Accrual

And, wha...? I'm supposed to be polite?

[blue adept]

Sorry Helen can't see where it's called "discussing" with comments like calling an elected governor (twice I might say) a puppet and a twit, calling Wisconsiners cheap or calling Republicans blind. To me that is old fashion "name-calling" which ought to be left on the playground.

Pardon me Homey, but you do not discuss either. You take what others say and turn it around and say the other side does it too. The real blow here is the fact that it took 100 plus years to get unions into a position where they had power, and that is all gone. Never mind the fact that you got yours, others will have to do without.

[armyda]

edeevee,

Thank you for the information and links.

And I did not intend to suggest that you had to be polite in your opinions. I'd have a pretty difficult time with that myself.

[HoosierHelen]

The following link displays the relationship between union workers and middle class citizens. What is the direction we can see for the middle class when unions are dead in our country? Yes...I realize we don't all wear the same prescription for our bifocals...yet...a graph is like a picture...worth a thousand words. This graph is an excellent picture of where we are at this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxb8pFaiua4

I have visited Mexico and China approx 20-25 yrs ago. The economies were not kind to their common citizens at that time. How did they survive...? Several generations and multiple siblings, wives, and offspring lived together in small apartments and or small homes. They lived in conditions that would be very difficult for the average American to adjust to...(I'm including myself there). In Hong Kong they hung multiple families clothing on bamboo sticks out the windows of apartments 20+ floors above the street to dry. I was always amazed at the fact that the clothes never seemed to drop to the street below and they did NOT use clothes pins as we have done in our country. I suppose I paid more attention to the Chinese laundry habits than I did those in Mexico because I don't recall how they dried their clothes. :-)

I honestly wonder if this is not the future for our middle class American families? As the wages plunge, how else are we all going to survive....especially if we want to send our children to college?

[ARMYMPVET]

While I have really not followed the Wisconsin recall election all that much it is now up to the citizens of that state to praise or curse the outcome. I can see benefits to both sides, but now they have to live with it and we get to study it for two more years. I believe this is how our government grows, by taking hints of what works from others and trying to avoid their mistakes.

[hairypumper]

The following link displays the relationship between union workers and middle class citizens. What is the direction we can see for the middle class when unions are dead in our country? Yes...I realize we don't all wear the same prescription for our bifocals...yet...a graph is like a picture...worth a thousand words. This graph is an excellent picture of where we are at this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxb8pFaiua4

I have visited Mexico and China approx 20-25 yrs ago. The economies were not kind to their common citizens at that time. How did they survive...? Several generations and multiple siblings, wives, and offspring lived together in small apartments and or small homes. They lived in conditions that would be very difficult for the average American to adjust to...(I'm including myself there). In Hong Kong they hung multiple families clothing on bamboo sticks out the windows of apartments 20+ floors above the street to dry. I was always amazed at the fact that the clothes never seemed to drop to the street below and they did NOT use clothes pins as we have done in our country. I suppose I paid more attention to the Chinese laundry habits than I did those in Mexico because I don't recall how they dried their clothes. :-)

I honestly wonder if this is not the future for our middle class American families? As the wages plunge, how else are we all going to survive....especially if we want to send our children to college?

Thanks Helen. This is how the illegals live in this country. A dozen or more living in a two bedroom house. That seems to be how the Republicans want all of us non-rich people to live. I wish all the voters would realize the big Republican lie, that if we keep pumping money into the pockets of the rich they will create jobs. In reality it's the consumers who create jobs. The less we have to spend the less jobs will be created. And the less we have to spend the more we will have to depend on China to provide the products we need. What a vicious cycle.

[blue adept]

Thanks Helen. This is how the illegals live in this country. A dozen or more living in a two bedroom house. That seems to be how the Republicans want all of us non-rich people to live. I wish all the voters would realize the big Republican lie, that if we keep pumping money into the pockets of the rich they will create jobs. In reality it's the consumers who create jobs. The less we have to spend the less jobs will be created. And the less we have to spend the more we will have to depend on China to provide the products we need. What a vicious cycle.

This is the truth that they will not allow out in the open. When they cut out the American worker, they got short term dividends, but they also cut their own throats in the long run. We used to be the great consumer, that will be hard to do with no disposable income.