Smokers' rights?

[david63]

What about the rights of business owners to run their business as they see fit?



If you're losing customers, its not a very good policy, is it?




Going to a restaurant is not a right, it is a privilege. I am tired of non-smokers thinking they're entitled to something. Why do you think your rights are greater than a smoker's rights?

Such a choice should be left to the business owner, and only the business owner. Telling him whether or not he can serve smoking customers is tantamount to telling him what to put on the menu.

The last time I checked, non-smokers easily outnumber the smokers. Majority rules...I have the right to dine without having to suck in the smoke of others. Add to that, study after study across the country shows that restaurants consistently GAIN business after a smoke-free ordinance is passed.

Besides, the same "rights" question could be asked of smokers. What rights do smokers have to inflict their smoke on others. The US Surgeon General has said there is conclusive evidence that secondhand smoke is dangerous to one's health and it kills 50,000 people annually. So I ask, whose rights should we follow??

[LuciusBeebe]

The last time I checked, non-smokers easily outnumber the smokers. Majority rules...I have the right to dine without having to suck in the smoke of others. Add to that, study after study across the country shows that restaurants consistently GAIN business after a smoke-free ordinance is passed.

Besides, the same "rights" question could be asked of smokers. What rights do smokers have to inflict their smoke on others. The US Surgeon General has said there is conclusive evidence that secondhand smoke is dangerous to one's health and it kills 50,000 people annually. So I ask, whose rights should we follow??

Did you miss the part when I said the choice belongs to the business owner only?

You don't have a right to dine without smoke. You don't have a right to dine with smoke. You don't have a right to dine anywhere except your own home. You don't have a right to restaurants, you don't have a right to bars. You DO have a right to start your own restaurant or bar, and you SHOULD be able to run it how you like.

Its funny what people think they deserve simply for existing.

[fought70]

Going to a restaurant is not a right, it is a privilege. I am tired of non-smokers thinking they're entitled to something. Why do you think your rights are greater than a smoker's rights?

Okay... hypothetically speaking, let's say we were talking about a city-wide nose-picking ban and the rights of nose-pickers versus non nose-pickers.

First of all, I'm sure we would all defend the rights of the nose-picker to enjoy a good nose-picking after his meal. That's only fair. After all, he's had a long, hard day at work and this is his time to relax and enjoy a good meal and reflect on the day.

On the other hand, if you were a non nose-picker and walked into a restaurant, you would be appalled to see mucus all over the ceiling tiles, table surfaces, and food. But with the risk of hurting the feelings of the nose-picker or having the business owner lose their business to the nose-picking joint across the street, it is allowed to continue. You quietly eat your meal (quickly) and go home to take a shower and change clothes.

I choose nose picking for this illustration because it is a disgusting habit... as is smoking. My point is this: breathing fresh air is not repulsive, nor is it obtrusive to people who smoke. It's a good thing for everyone.

However, those people with the bad habit continue to disregard the health and comfort of non-smokers because they can't go a half hour without "picking their nose" so to speak.

Please, somebody see my point! Maybe what I'm saying is that it's about time business owners take it upon themselves to do something. Maybe this isn't the government's responsibility, but from where I stand right now, this is the only way I can see something happening.

Telling him whether or not he can serve smoking customers is tantamount to telling him what to put on the menu.

This is similar to saying that establishments that allow smoking cannot serve non-smokers. Think about what you are saying and reverse the roles. Might I also add here that just because you have a habit of smoking doesn't mean that you can't go to a smoke free restaurant. Inhale your tar before you go, and then again after you get home.

I know I probably seem very insensitive, but I watched as my "strong" grandpa slowly gave his strength and eventually his life to lung cancer. This is not about your "right" to smoke, it's about everyone's "right" to be healthy.

[james_t]

I'm going to start this thread here (and move some of the existing posts over) in order to give the Ligonier mayoral candidates their thread back before it gets too far off topic. If you're looking for the original debate, check here:

http://www.fwdailynews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2711

Lucius asked about smokers' rights. One principle that has always been applied to individual rights is that they end when they begin to infringe upon the rights of others, and I think that's where much of the anti-smoking push is coming from.

For instance, my oldest son is mildly asthmatic. For the most part, he doesn't have any trouble with it, but get him around cigarette smoke, and he can't breathe. Of course, we can and do keep him away from places with heavy cigarette smoke, but you can also make the argument that his freedom to go into supposedly public places is being infringed upon. In fact, a couple years ago, when we went to the Brickyard 400, he had a tough time for a while because of all the smokers around us - again, his right to enjoy the race was being infringed upon.

[LuciusBeebe]

Okay... hypothetically speaking, let's say we were talking about a city-wide nose-picking ban and the rights of nose-pickers versus non nose-pickers.

First of all, I'm sure we would all defend the rights of the nose-picker to enjoy a good nose-picking after his meal. That's only fair. After all, he's had a long, hard day at work and this is his time to relax and enjoy a good meal and reflect on the day.

On the other hand, if you were a non nose-picker and walked into a restaurant, you would be appalled to see mucus all over the ceiling tiles, table surfaces, and food. But with the risk of hurting the feelings of the nose-picker or having the business owner lose their business to the nose-picking joint across the street, it is allowed to continue. You quietly eat your meal (quickly) and go home to take a shower and change clothes.

I choose nose picking for this illustration because it is a disgusting habit... as is smoking. My point is this: breathing fresh air is not repulsive, nor is it obtrusive to people who smoke. It's a good thing for everyone.

However, those people with the bad habit continue to disregard the health and comfort of non-smokers because they can't go a half hour without "picking their nose" so to speak.

Please, somebody see my point! Maybe what I'm saying is that it's about time business owners take it upon themselves to do something. Maybe this isn't the government's responsibility, but from where I stand right now, this is the only way I can see something happening.



This is similar to saying that establishments that allow smoking cannot serve non-smokers. Think about what you are saying and reverse the roles. Might I also add here that just because you have a habit of smoking doesn't mean that you can't go to a smoke free restaurant. Inhale your tar before you go, and then again after you get home.

I know I probably seem very insensitive, but I watched as my "strong" grandpa slowly gave his strength and eventually his life to lung cancer. This is not about your "right" to smoke, it's about everyone's "right" to be healthy.

No, no its not at all. Its about a person's right to run a business the way he sees fit.

You want a smoke free restaurant? Go get a loan and build one yourself. You have no right to tell a man who has worked hard to create a bar or restaurant how he may run that bar or restaurant.

This is not about your "right" to smoke, it's about everyone's "right" to be healthy.

I didn't realize you were being forced at gun point to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

[james_t]

Did you miss the part when I said the choice belongs to the business owner only?

That's actually not true. Ask business owners, schools, churches, etc., how many accommodations they have had to make due to the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[LuciusBeebe]

Yes, there are regulations on how a business owner runs his business. Building codes, health codes, et cetera. This is not an issue of a person being served food that is unhealthy without their knowledge. This is not about going to a bar that may not have a structurally sound roof.

This is about going to an establishment with the knowledge that smokers are allowed inside, and in choosing to go to that establishment you have put yourself at risk. This is about non-smokers willingly making a choice, and then complaining about it.

Where would you like it to end? Many people are upset by obese people. Obesity is unhealthy as well. Perhaps we should ban obese people from bars and restaurants. On second thought, why not ban high calorie meals and limit portions that people can order as well? SUV's are gas hogs that hurt the environment, so lets ban those from parking lots at bars and restaurants, too.

Let's take all the decisions out of the hands of the people who actually own the establishment, and put it in the hands of elected officials who are subject to the whims of the politically correct.

[fought70]

Yes, there are regulations on how a business owner runs his business. Building codes, health codes, et cetera. This is not an issue of a person being served food that is unhealthy without their knowledge. This is not about going to a bar that may not have a structurally sound roof.

This is about going to an establishment with the knowledge that smokers are allowed inside, and in choosing to go to that establishment you have put yourself at risk. This is about non-smokers willingly making a choice, and then complaining about it.

I'm glad you brought up the roof thing. Let me provide you with another illustration...

Let's say I do go into that bar knowing that the roof is unsafe. Heck, let's say even the surgeon general and every American knows that the roof is unsafe. (Just for kicks and giggles)

Now- let's imagine if there were no codes or regulations put into place by the GOVERNMENT to protect us from that unsafe roof. Then we'd say the government wasn't doing their job. Sure the business owner would be able to run the business as he wished. (He'd even save alot of money) But would the general public be safe? NO.

The same goes for smoking. I don't think there is one person out there that fundamentally believes smoking is healthy. If we are all in agreement on this issue, then why is there such a struggle to protect us from this danger? Why the resistance?

Please explain...

[LuciusBeebe]

If we are all in agreement on this issue, then why is there such a struggle to protect us from this danger? Why the resistance?


Because of the precedent it sets.

[ebbieday]

As a former smoker (non-smoker for 13 years) I agree with everyone in favor of clean air while dining. Even when I was smoking I hated being in any establishment that allowed smoking, INCLUDING bars, which is why I do not frequent them. It should be done outdoors where we all have the ability to walk away from the disgusting filth and smell. I speak of my former self when I say people who smoke stink horribly. We all have the RIGHT and/or priveledge to dine out when we please and last night it was so nice to eat at Applebees without having to choke on disrespectful second hand smoke. Every person I have ever known who is a former smoker agrees with this philosophy. If marijuana was legal, would smokers who are against drugs like it if someone sat next to you smoking a joint giving you a contact buzz? I think not. Same concept.

[LuciusBeebe]

it was so nice to eat at Applebees without having to choke on disrespectful second hand smoke.

It was so nice to eat at Los Limas and to enjoy a nice cigarette upon completion of my meal.

without having to choke on disrespectful second hand smoke

Oh, its disrespectful now, is it? Maybe non-smokers are self-centered.

I can't really describe the disappointment I had the last time I went to Bloomington. My favorite establishment, The Irish Lion, is my favorite pub in the whole dang world, if just for their mutton stew. But I was downright flabberghasted to learn upon returning there that I couldn't smoke a cigarette inside anymore. A classic irish pub with stuffed animal heads on the wall and yards of beer was transformed into sissy willy mary's bar for politically correct lilly-livers.

[ebbieday]

Maybe non-smokers are self-centered.

I can't really describe the disappointment I had the last time I went to Bloomington. My favorite establishment, The Irish Lion, is my favorite pub in the whole dang world, if just for their mutton stew. But I was downright flabberghasted to learn upon returning there that I couldn't smoke a cigarette inside anymore. A classic irish pub with stuffed animal heads on the wall and yards of beer was transformed into sissy willy mary's bar for politically correct lilly-livers.

I guess if wanting to keep mine and my children's lungs as clean as possible while in public is considered self-centered, then so be it...I'll take it. For me it has absolutely nothing to do with being PC...that term alone makes me sick. It's about clean living and breathing. Soooooo...I guess we'll agree to disagree. Period. Talk to me about the joy of smoking when you are lying in a death bed with cancer. I watched my Grandfather and hubby's Grandfather both die slowly that way...no thanks. You have no right to inflict that on those of us who CHOOSE not to pollute our bodies with such addictive drugs. Too bad you can't just inject the nicotine like heroine...would be a much cleaner drug to use...dontcha think?

[LuciusBeebe]

You have no right to inflict that on those of us who CHOOSE not to pollute our bodies with such addictive drugs.

Who made you go to the restaurant that allows smoking? Nobody. You chose to go there. That was your choice.

I guess if wanting to keep mine and my children's lungs as clean as possible while in public is considered self-centered, then so be it...I'll take it.

No, what is self-centered is thinking you should be the one to tell a man how he can and cannot run his bar. What gives you that right? Did you build that bar? Do you pay his bills?

Talk to me about the joy of smoking when you are lying in a death bed with cancer.

Talk to me about the joy of french fries when you are lying in a death bed with heart disease.

[Copycatted]

Geese,leave the room for a while to come back and find a bunch of smok'n mirrors. Gotta go again but keep them on track LuciousBebee,not one for the Gipper this time but for the A-TEAM(S Love it when a plan comes together)…

[LuciusBeebe]

for the A-TEAM(S Love it when a plan comes together)…

now I have the theme song stuck in my head

[little1]

Everyone has a point to this discussion. Some are for and others are against smoking.......

Why don't we look at it from another angle...if you want your city or town to be "smoke-free" go all the way with it. Ban the sell of tobacco products too.

And when this is all done....remember that by banning smoking and banning the sell of tobacco products you are also giving up any and all tax money coming from the sell of tobacco and tobacco products. Your city or town, your employees, everyone living in your town or city must accept the fact that smokers sould not have to support governments that ban smoking. After all, who do governments come after to support all the health care programs; the smokers...because smoking causes all these illnesses...anyway that is what they want us to believe.

That way, you are truely making your city or town "safe" from second hand smoke. oh, and while you are banning tobacco...would you please ban all alcholic beverages too. You see drinking and driving kills too. And personally there isn't anything worse than someone who has had to much to drink..and the smell...it's as bad as the smell of tobacco.

Anyway you go in this matter will effort someones "rights".

[LuciusBeebe]

Amen, bruther.

After all, who do governments come after to support all the health care programs; the smokers...because smoking causes all these illnesses...anyway that is what they want us to believe.

I read a report by the Red Cross that blamed secondhand smoke for thousands of cases of SIDS.

SIDS is, by definition, an unexplainable death.

[ebbieday]

Who made you go to the restaurant that allows smoking? Nobody. You chose to go there. That was your choice.

Nope...chose Applebees that does NOT allow smoking. Did you not read my comments?


No, what is self-centered is thinking you should be the one to tell a man how he can and cannot run his bar. What gives you that right? Did you build that bar? Do you pay his bills?

Once again, I don't do bars, as I said in a previous post.



Talk to me about the joy of french fries when you are lying in a death bed with heart disease.

Sorry...Don't do fries either.

[ebbieday]

That way, you are truely making your city or town "safe" from second hand smoke. oh, and while you are banning tobacco...would you please ban all alcholic beverages too. You see drinking and driving kills too. And personally there isn't anything worse than someone who has had to much to drink..and the smell...it's as bad as the smell of tobacco.

I agree wholeheartedly. Alcohol CAN smell just as nasty on a person...especially when that person also smokes. Double nasty. I make the choice to stay at home if I engage in the right and/or priviledge to have drinks (in moderation) on any given evening. The difference is, if I am drinking in MY home it does not float through the air and cause cirrhosis of someone else's liver, only to the one ingesting it...me!

[LuciusBeebe]

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Who made you go to the restaurant that allows smoking? Nobody. You chose to go there. That was your choice.

Nope...chose Applebees that does NOT allow smoking. Did you not read my comments?

No, I meant in the instance that you go to a restaurant that allows smoking. In the case of that happening, it was your choice to go there.

NOBODY in the history of America has been forced to put up with smoke at a restaurant.